icc To reply to the blog, please use the "comments" icons under the posts to reply to the blog. In other words, return to the main page, then click the "comments" link to the left of the envelope icon underneath a post, then click on "Post a comment." Thanks. Tuesday, October 18th 2005 - 09:42:14 AM

icc For your information, the author of this blog is female, not male. Tuesday, July 19th 2005 - 10:26:24 AM

Everaldo B. Benros [e] I read the article in which Chuck Lucas was mentioned. I then went on to read more about his resignation. In his resignation letter, he was vague and did not demonstrate any concrete evidence of a willingness to repent. Kip's letter of resignation sounded the same. Does any one know what "marital issues" Kip spoke of in his letter? Are Kip and Elena still married? Has he repented? Thursday, June 23rd 2005 - 03:58:24 PM

Brandon [e] For someone who claims he is so smart, your certainly cannot fend for yourself. Your bitterness preceeds you and your lack of confidence in your self proves it. Your website, while well put together forgets to look and one thing, that while you cannot forgive and forget, there are thousands around the world who can. You don't have to read your Bible and you don't have to pray, I do not condem you for it and nor does god (even though you don't care). However, you have some issues that you might want to attend to before you continue to lash out against this church, and it might prove helpful to remember what your parents taught you about respecting others. You know it's bad when an 18 year old can see this but you cannot. But hey, I'll pray for you bro, and I still have hope for you no matter how bitter and angry you become, because even the foolish can succede with the prayers of others. God bless you. Sunday, April 17th 2005 - 12:06:22 AM

john menyhard [e] i been with the boston church for 14 years in nsshua,nh and theer some i do say on what you say not everything. like with teh bible i felt that at the time they where doing teh best that they can and the other church i went wheren't doing anything that used the bible,but one of the thing i saw was wen i had money everone like me,but wen i was out of work i didn't hear from them at all and wen i need help they where not there for me and wen i was going thought thing i had to be doing good all the time. i learnd alot for them in the bible,but i do see some of what you saying. like the are only some to do have everthing given too them and other are left hanging like me.because i'am not a leader. yes i said it i think only learder get what they want i wanted i girlfrend,but because i'am not a learder i can't have one. i think that. the girl where our sister in the church where if they where nice looking they can do anything they want,but us guys are left hanging. i want them to learn form this,but i don't see any time soon.i'am praying for them. i know that i'am going get from buy saying this. i don't care anymore god is with so be not. Saturday, February 12th 2005 - 01:01:30 PM

ls HOPE is a non-profit volunteer org only for the people who VOLUNTEER... the people who run it have been paying themselves handsomely for years. Ever heard of United Way? Tuesday, September 28th 2004 - 06:21:42 PM

icc why, oh why, do you morons think i'm a christian? tsk tsk. your remonstrances fall on deaf ears. this site was not written for you people, but for the intelligent people who are sick of lying to themselves! geez, go read your bible ... Tuesday, September 28th 2004 - 03:29:34 PM

Rich Wright [e] Do you have anything better to do than to trash the ICOC? You're spreading lies, not us. HOPE is a non-profit volunteer orgaization - I know - I have friends that work there and believe me they are not making any money. I've been a Christian in the Boston Church of Christ and now the LA Church of Christ for almost 17 years and mistakes made by the leadership were always made with the heart of trying to convert as many as possible to Christ (which is follower of Christ is supposed to do). So many lives have been changed - people who were "Christians" in other "churches" who didn't know the basics about God - including myself. If you have problems with our beliefs than tell us scriptures show us where we're wrong - our critics never do that. If you claim to be a follower of Jesus you should be spreading the good news instead of gossiping and slandering other who are working their hardest for Jesus. Sunday, September 19th 2004 - 01:14:19 PM

kevin [e] Do you read the bible and believe in God? Tuesday, September 14th 2004 - 11:32:18 PM

Kris Scholter [e] Martha! Martha! You are worried and upset about many things but, only one thing is needed. Monday, August 9th 2004 - 04:56:28 PM

ls for the icc cult member in denial, who wrote stuff below: please, YOU have no life, except the ICOC. why don't you just go get laid? Wednesday, July 14th 2004 - 05:13:39 PM

A.E. [e] As I was looking at this web site I thought to myself . . .this person has no life. Are you searching for something to fill up your time? Why are you so concerned about the ICOC? If you don't like it, don't go that's what people do with any church. It's a church, not Heaven. Thus, it is made up of a person trying their best to be spiritual that’s it. However, only God is perfect. I'm not saying that I think anything you've stated means anything at all, but I do know if you look into anyone's life (even yours) there are going to be things that don't make them perfect . . .and so WHAT! I look at this web site and it's comical to me. You've spent a lot of time, doing absolutely nothing . . .I hope you have made the same effort into knowing God, because if you did you wouldn't be "casting stones." And you're right . . .you don't have to go to one of the ICOC in order to know God. God will lead you through the bible (that you don't seem to be reading), if you listen to him. Why don't you start your own church if you feel that you could do so much better? If you do, I hope you read your bible about grace, love, God being the only God not people (you worship God not people), sin, resentment, hate, mercy . . .and the fact that God is God, and he will not be mocked. Therefore, if ICOC is not correct in striving to be Christ-like, believe me, God doesn't need you to figure that out. "God will not be mocked," read that in your bible. Not by anyone in the ICOC, or you. Why don't you pray for the world's leaders, all of them, that's what the bible says to do. Why don't you quote the bible, instead of people? I have been wronged by people all my life, even recently, but so WHAT? God has never wronged me though, and if you keep that prospective, you wouldn’t be worried about what people are doing, and you would let God be God. In sum, the things that you write about are meaningless. I don't need one fact to know that none of the leaders of the ICOC are perfect . . .they're people. And, if I were counting on them to be Gods, I would have no hope. God is the only hope (Numbers 23:19). Thus, read God's promises, and know that he is God, not people, and you'll be all right. Tuesday, June 22nd 2004 - 11:32:24 AM

icc I would suggest you visit the ICC Discussion forum (links on the blog). As for newspaper clippings, you can start with www.reveal.org. Thursday, May 13th 2004 - 08:35:25 AM

. [e] Have there been many recent complaints against the NYC churches or L.A. churches? Is involvement recommended or not recommended? Have there been any positive changes/ Any info is appreciated. How can I get a newspapaper packet? Saturday, May 1st 2004 - 08:09:51 PM

Misty Update to previous comment. The ACES World Sector audited financial statements Year ended 12/31/2002 are now posted on the nyccc website. Interesting notes include confirmation that on 2/26/03 ACES sold 55 Del Rey Dr. Mt Vernon NY (otherwise known as SP's home)for $460,170. And over 1/2 a million went to salaries. And a 500,000 loan to the British Commonwealth World Sector The past is the past. I am grateful that this information has finally been put in writing and made available by the nycccc. How much better it would have been to have done this one year ago. Tuesday, March 30th 2004 - 11:23:21 AM

Misty Update to previous comment. The ACES World Sector audited financial statements Year ended 12/31/2002 are now posted on the nyccc website. Interesting notes include confirmation that on 2/26/03 ACES sold 55 Del Rey Dr. Mt Vernon NY (otherwise known as SP's home)for $460,170. And over 1/2 a million went to salaries. And a 500,000 loan to the British Commonwealth World Sector The past is the past. I am grateful that this information has finally been put in writing and made available by the nycccc. How much better it would have been to have done this one year ago. Tuesday, March 30th 2004 - 11:22:29 AM

Misty Yes it's true that the ACES books have not been opened. I requested as much at one of the NYCCOC "open forums". I also asked a church office employee about ACES funds and he said that no one worked for ACES anymore so no one could look up the info for me. HELLO? Of course ACES board members SP and MH are apparently very much in existence. Whatever. Thursday, February 5th 2004 - 05:25:48 PM

minan Here's what some have to say about that: "I suspect that ACES funds 'in a holding account' were used for investment. Perhaps investment into software.com . There is some evidence to support this. Some churches such as ACOC received rather large rebates from ACES - and the source was cited as 'interest from investments'. The amounts received were far more than a 5% return on money held in deposit. I think THIS is what THEY don't want us to know." http://forums.delphiforums.com/n/mb/message.asp?webtag=ICCdiscussion&msg=10341.164#a176 Thursday, February 5th 2004 - 03:17:38 PM

Misty A thought about the 2002 audited NYC financials. I totally disagree with the use of funds by the NYCCOC and HOPEWW but I wonder if the statments suggest that the alleged "missing" 500K from benevolence went to HopeWW Tri-state i.e. the local branch. Earlier in the report it states that the church committed 367,600 to HopeWW (this ties in with the idea that 3-4% of "regular" weekly contribution went to HOPEWW National office.) Yet on page 9 it says that 945,491 went to Hope WW. Thus perhaps the "missing" 500K or so. Again I totally disagree with the spending priorities of the group, but this seems to clear up the difference. Also the November 2003 benevolence reports shows 2/3 going to HopeWW local and 1/3 to members. Peace and love, Misty Wednesday, February 4th 2004 - 03:06:58 PM

sincamper [e] [h] Hi guys, Thanks for the promotion of my comic strip "My Evangelist" that you did awhile back when it was in its infancy. I now have a full blown website at www.sincamper.com and have put my strips into printed books and digital books and made them available for donation money. It is still entirely an ICOC commentary/history lesson in comic strip form. Check it out whn you get a chance. The site features 10 examples from each Book that is available and some new material and latest developments. If anyone has any ideas how I can promote this strip or my site beyond the Delphi forums, please let me know. There are hundreds of thousands of exies and many members who might get a kick out of it, who have never been to Delphi Forums. Best to all of you and thanks for the support. SinCamper :) Tuesday, January 27th 2004 - 05:59:15 AM

Corey Wilson [e] I left the San Francisco Church the same day we were told that the Boston church was going to be overseeing us. I knew this was the begining of Kip's totalitarian rule. I am so glad I did it when I did now that I read what has happened. We now meet in a house church in Rochester, NY and there is so much love and deep fellowship and God is growing us in strength and number. We firmly hold to discipling and evangelism and most of all surrendering 100% to the Lord. My prayer for all those in upheaval now that they not lose what it right and good when rejected the part that was twisted and wrong. May God Bless you beyond what you can think or imagine as you are healed by His loving arms. Our bearing of much fruit comes from abiding in Him and that is our focus. Spend each day aware that He is crazy in love with you. Sunday, December 28th 2003 - 04:21:31 PM

J For those who were members of the ICOC, I just want to know (please don't be offended by these questions): 1.)Have you decided to go back to your old religion/belief(e.g. Catholicism, Buddhism, Methodism, Agnosticism, Atheism, etc.), and why or why not? 2.) Having been "freed from the chains of the ICOC," do you still maintain a personal relationship with God? Why or why not? 3.) After leaving the ICOC, what is now your perception of "sin"? How do you deal with this ("sin") now, if ever? 4.) Assuming that the ICOC will change for the better/repent, will you still be willing to return? Why or why not? I am trying to get all sides here, and any and all comments on this post shall be most welcome. If you are somehow offended by the foregoing questions, my sincere apologies in advance. Thursday, December 4th 2003 - 09:47:03 PM

existentialistgirl [e] [h] good blog. im a newbie still searching for a religion . Friday, November 28th 2003 - 06:50:56 PM

MD Cols COC [e] [h] I would like to begin this article by stating that its intention was to be kept brief. First I don¡¦t think most people have an interest in reading pages of opinionated writing ¡V unless they chose to buy it at a bookstore. I would also like to start by slamming the people that have chosen to use this forum as a disgruntled ¡§punch all¡¨ to everything associated with ICOC. These people are choosing to eliminate the ant hill with a nuclear weapon. What¡¦s more, having read through a lot of the garbage written by past preachers for ICOC, that after leaving showed no humility, only hurt (from some things that are justified in and of themselves ¡V just not their method of reproach) and have thus by led many away from a life of needed closeness to God. This comment is specifically directed towards Gustavo Sassano ¡V although I would not limit my correction to just him by any means. Obviously there is a lot of hurt going within this young man. Hopefully, he (and all others) will be able to find the true forgiveness and humility before he has to meet his maker. By no means do I expect it to come from this letter though ¡V instead it will probably fuel his hatred of a system that God never intended to occur. But then again, since we are on the subject of God¡¦s intervention ¡K What amazed me most is/was the fact that after reading all of these accounts of disgruntled leaders, they still have yet to know the true history of the people within the Bible. This adverse reaction to preaching is nothing new ¡V I mean come on! The terms ¡§falling away¡¨, ¡§turning their backs on God¡¨, means that they had to have been following Him to begin with. Think about it! What¡¦s more interesting is that although Mr. Sassano¡¦s letter indicated his regret, I found little indication of a heartfelt apology for those he hurt. (Although there was obvious anger aimed at those that showed no apology to him ¡V keeping records of wrongs -are we now?) What¡¦s more, there was very real and true indication of the fact that he showed little consideration for those that were doing well within the church; or the thousands of people that walked from a life of death, into a life of understanding and light. By so doing he forgot the favorite trick that Satan uses ¡V deception. And yes I believe that he (and many others) are very deceived at this point about a number of things including (but not limited to) their own salvation. The truly sad point about all of this though (that I am sure has Satan laughing all the way to his bank of souls) is the fact that through such divisions is Satan¡¦s work accomplished. To those that have fallen away, I would caution you to reconsider those that you have influenced by your pain and your anguish. Or to those that have walked away, I urge you all to reconsider and at least get both sides ¡Vnamely the important side from a true man of God ¡V not some critic. Hire a critic, and expect criticism. Expect it to be negative. But also, lend your ears to a true man of God, one that uses scripture to state his obvious ¡V not opinion! („²-Very Important) As I said earlier (Mr. Sassano), though your own pain and anguish may be justified in your own interpretation, it certainly does not apply to us all. I am not a leader. I have no want to become one actually ¡V I have enough trouble keeping my own life lined up with God¡¦s word ¡V let alone lead others. It seems to me that many of these leaders (that fell away) felt the same way ¡V only they were not smart enough to realize it ¡V or they were deceived into believing something more of themselves then they really were. So what? Isn¡¦t this the same thing that happened to 90% of the Bible¡¦s heroes? I mean, did not Moses believe he was not capable of carrying out God¡¦s commands? I mean c¡¦mon let¡¦s be real here¡K the reason Mr. Sassanos BECAME incapable of leading was the same reason Judas became incapable too ¡V Believing Satan¡¦s lies. Both lost faith in God and then themselves in that order. Think about it. I am certainly not a super-Christian. Anyone who knows me will attest to as much. But I do believe that I have a pretty firm grasp of the deception at the tip of this ICOC / Cult thing. It is run by us humans. Eliminate the human factor and implement a computer program if you¡¦re looking for that type of perfection. It will not come without the same type of controls that follow any autocratic government. And of course let us not forget the fact that computers lack love. They are cold, and calculating. Yes, they serve a purpose, but not when it comes to representing God. I will leave you all with a few passages from the Word of God, the only words in this life that truly matter. Love: - is patient, love is kind ¡Kit keeps no records of wrongs¡K¡KIt always protects, always trusts, always hopes ALWAYS PERSERVERES. Warnings: Mat 24:4. Watch out, that no one deceives you. 2 Tim 3:1-10 There will be terrible times in the last days. People will be lovers of themselves¡K¡Kungrateful¡K¡Kwithout self-control¡K.. SLANDEROUS¡K.rash¡Kconceited¡KHAVING A FORM OF GODLINESS but defying its power. Have nothing to do with them¡K¡KBut they will not get very far because as in the case of those men, their folly will be clear to everyone. 2Tim 2:14 Keep reminding them of these things. Warn them before God against quarreling about words; it is of no value, and only ruins those who listen¡K. Their teaching will spread like gangrene. To those of the faith, I only have to say that signs are all around us ¡V chose as you will this day whom you will serve. And if you think the choice is all too easy, I recommend reconsidering using the only text that matters to this issue to find the answer for yourself ¡V may God help us all to find the way to Him through this web of ignorance, lies and deceit in a world that belongs to Satan himself. Wednesday, November 12th 2003 - 12:49:46 AM

Lucas Ponce [e] I think you ought to get a life and mind your own business! Why do you even post here. Obviously you have nothing better to do than mock people who have been hurt and are trying to heal. Do you think CHrist would treat anybody that way? You people are soooooooo far from being Christ like that it's Satanic! We are trying to get on with our lives and here comes some moron trying to ruin that. You are a reptile; go slither somewhere else, and leave us alone. Wednesday, October 29th 2003 - 04:48:47 PM

James [e] dude you sound like an aggitated jehova witness, 7 day adventist or mormon when I(icoc member) press them on the wrongs with there church Wednesday, October 29th 2003 - 02:26:11 PM

minan [ Please reread all of your comments and think about how much love you are really showing ] No, dear, YOU need to think about how much love you are really showing. Go re-read your first post. Wednesday, October 29th 2003 - 12:50:18 PM

ls bye. Wednesday, October 29th 2003 - 12:49:13 PM

mike Looks like you already judged that my faith is in man and not in God - could you tell me how you know that?, have you been there when I pray? Do you know my relationship with God? And you know how sincere I am, funny, we have never spoke and you don't know my heart, yet you say these things. Are you trying to play God or something? This conversation is over. Please reread all of your comments and think about how much love you are really showing. I don't need to argue my convictions or my faith with anyone. You have really built my convictions, you people jump on every word I write, without love and compassion. Thank you for showing me that I should never leave God and His people. No need to respond because I will not be writting anymore on this site. Wednesday, October 29th 2003 - 12:19:25 PM

Heather Mike: p.s. being in the icc longer does not make you more 'spiritual' it just makes you more prideful and lessens your ability to think independantly. Wednesday, October 29th 2003 - 09:44:13 AM

Heather [e] Mike: It is obvious that you are pro-ICC old school mindset, hence nothing anyone says to you will have a deep impact as is such with those who have given up responsibility for their OWN thought process. But I'll take one more stab at it. You really believe the ICC is a church, when it's obvious (by the bylaws) that it is a Corporation built on $$$$ where souls are for sale. Why do they want you to 'reach out' to people? for more $$$$$ as one ex-ministry leader put it, the abc's of baptism are A = attendance, B = baptisms and c = contribution. Money makes the world go round and apparantly the icc as well. I'm sorry that you can't see though all this and let me remind you that over 25,000 people have been where you are right now. And if you are 'seeking advice' with people, wouldn't you want to 'seek advice and wisdom' from people who have been there and done that? but you choose to follow people blindly and that is where God will hold you accountable. Again as I said before most of us who are ex-members are trying to help current members understand the cage they are in. We don't want them to suffer like we did. thanks for your 'apology'...as insincere as it was. the funny thing is you don't realize that you are being abused as well, you don't want to see it because to do so would shake your faith too much since it is in man and not in God. good luck to you and if ever you need help we will still be here to support you; whether you leave or not. Heather Wednesday, October 29th 2003 - 09:29:16 AM

Excelsior7 You claim we should not just make blanket statements and then you turn around and do it. LOL Maybe it is time for you to grow up and realize you ARE in a cult. You talk about how people need to leave your church alone. Yet the ICOC has slandered OTHER religions. You say no unwholesome talk should come out anyone's mouth yet YOUR OWN post did nothing to build anyone up and the ICOC itself has torn hundreds of thousands of people down. I have a life, i don't need someone telling me how to live it, what job to take and when I can call someone on the phone. It's called being an adult try it sometime Tuesday, October 28th 2003 - 11:11:45 PM

mike Please let me clarify my comment. I am very sorry for your hurts and problems in the Church and have been around the ICOC probably longer than most of you commenting here. I have seen many make bad mistakes and have made many myself, but one thing I don’t believe is that it is ok to put people down or slander others by using their names or poking fun. I don’t know you and you don’t know me, so putting all of these blanket statements about the church and people will only give those with the right heart (and yes there are many in the ICOC with a great heart for God) a bad attitude. I’m sorry that someone has messed up your faith in God or have cause some type of deep attitude for certain people, but please don’t try to destroy other peoples faith. I believe if we are going to fix things, in and out of the ICOC, we must spread the miracles of Jesus. Please let this website be filled with the great things that God is doing in your lives, lets share of His love, forgiveness, grace, etc. Yes, Jesus pointed out the wrong in the religion of His day, but we are not Jesus. The main thing that I see in Jesus was his love for the lost, for those who opposed him, for those who were looked down upon, for those who were helpless and for the unloved. If we are going to focus on something, let us focus on His love. And as for God being in control, how can you not believe that. God can stop our heart at any second he wants to. I don’t believe that it is ok to do nothing and say that God will change it but even if I made a mistake (I have made many and so have all of us) God will teach us something. “God is in control” can be a crutch for some and for others it is faith that He works through all situations. Maybe it doesn’t say those exact words but it does say that we must die to ourselves. If I am dead to my self and depending on myself and thinking that my way is right, who do I put in control of my life, me or God? God needs to be in control. We should correct people if they think they, themselves are in control. If God is not in control, who is?? When I’m in control, I mess up. I know that from experience. Even now, when I mess up I can usually see how I tried to put me back in control. If you know someone who needs help in their relationship with God, show them the love of God, don’t put others down. If you can name a church or group of people or even an individual that have never made mistakes, please show me. Until then we should stop pointing fingers at those who have done wrong. Instead we should show love and compassion for those people. I have a hard enough time looking at all the mistakes and sins that I commit to spend much time looking at others. Yes, I want to help others, but putting them down is just flat wrong. Our ultimate goal is to make it to heaven not to point fingers at who is wrong. If you believe that the way I worship God is wrong, so be it, that’s your opinion. We all have a right to our opinions, but we can not cross the Biblical lines of Gods word. There should be no unwholesome talk out of our mouths, but only what is useful for building each other up. We must hold to the scriptures in this, even when we are hurt or mad. Why can’t this web site be focused around that? Jesus never “vented” His hurts on others. I’m sure that he was hurt many times by His disciples and by those who opposed Him. He still loved at all times. I put one comment in this comment section and there were many to jump on every word I said. Why can’t we just focus on love and Jesus? Again, I am sorry for your hurts and I do believe it is time to look toward the future and inspiring each other to be closer to God. Lets focus on pray for each other instead of proving our point about who is right or wrong. Tuesday, October 28th 2003 - 05:27:12 PM

Brian Moore [e] To: whom it may concern, What people must understand The ICOC was wrong and must understand there fault or God will not allow the church to grow. We can look into the history of the ICOC and see the Hiearchy of it is Boston, and any one from there. If they do not change it, it will destroy it self. Gods Law is true to it's self. So those hear at this sight must continue too share their heart. Because even though they hate the ICOC. It is the only way to mend the pain.. For those still in the ICOC, untill you learn to follow the Bible and stop standing up for the ICOC and stand up for GOD.You will never be true Disciples. Because the truth is the ICOC was right about the Bible teachings. It was when they stopped teaching and started to control, and people still kept beleiving because the trust was formed. But once you see that God left the picture at that time and someone came into the picture who is some one holding a pitch fork and breathing fire.That is when they turned it into a Business. But they can still repent untill they are dead, when that will be who knows. But I promise one thing nothing is ever forgotten................................. Tuesday, October 28th 2003 - 04:46:05 PM

Swordlady >>I think its time for all of you to get a life. Do you realize that there are many people in this Church that are extremely happy and want you people to mind your own business.<< I have PLENTY of life right now, thank you very much. And I still have many friends in the church who I care about deeply, which is why I'm still concerned about what is going on. >>Know one is holding you in the ICOC but I think Satan is holding you to putting it down, as if you think you are God.<< What makes you think Satan is the one who is causing people to still negatively about the ICOC? And since when was speaking negatively about a church a sin? >>If God wants change, he will bring it. For those in the Church who are leading wrong, God will take care of them.<< God can use anyone or anything for his purpose. I'm pretty much convinced that God used Henry's letter - and the Internet - to help bring a VERY wayward church to its knees. >>If you really believe that it is wrong, then leave and keep your opinions to yourself.<< I beg your pardon? This is a free country, bucko! You're free to support the ICOC if you like. There are many who have been really hurt by this church - and we are also free to share about our experiences as well. And I am very much concerned for many of my friends who are still in. >>I believe that God is in control of my life and His Church. Maybe its time to let Him be in control.<< The ICOC is NOT God's only church! God's universal church does not have a name. God has also given us free will - and for those of us who were baptized, his Holy Spirit as well. And I don't think he has meant for us to sit on our rumps and wait for the writing on the wall. >>You post letters of people who can not forgive and say that they should be punished for the wrongs that they have done.<< How do you know if all these people who posted letters haven't forgiven people? As much as I've been hurt my the church, I'm not out on a mad vendetta for anyone's head on a platter. But that's just me. And I believe that those who HAVE done the rank-and-file wrong NEED to apologize and be humbled. You know that those who teach will be judged more harshly by God - better to apologize and make right now, than to have God himself do it. >>I think you and I have done wrongs and I read in the Bible that my God is forgiving and loving, not full of bad comments, negative thoughts or postings of people who he considers bad or "don't get it". Try reading your Bible.<< The bible chronicles both the good AND the bad. So why do you think people should only talk about the good? Do you really expect everyone to be "happy" all the time, and sweep the bad under the rug? Methinks you're the one who needs a reality check. Tuesday, October 28th 2003 - 04:09:17 PM

FatLesbian [h] Hey Mike, er...uh...BRO!!! The spaceship lands on highway 95,remember? be sure to catch it. don't forget your bubble...ooops, I mean BIBLE. Cindy Tuesday, October 28th 2003 - 02:05:23 PM

SmelleeCat It's unfortunate that you don't have the same righteous indignation about Pharisees that Jesus did. You say "try reading your Bibles" - I read my Bible, and I saw how disgusted Jesus was with the Pharisees, and I saw how closely the top leadership resembled these very Pharisees. That's when I knew I needed to leave. God IS changing and rebuking the top leadership of the ICC. I'm sorry you don't see that. And, I'm concerned about your lack of biblical knowledge...you basically state that God thinks and says nothing negative about others (and, therefore, people should stop saying bad things about the ICC), and this is simply not true. You need to study your Bible more. God was ESPECIALLY hard on the religious leaders and Pharisees and all those who came in His name, yet were unrighteous and didn't have in mind & heart the things of God. You really need to evaluate whether that is YOUR heart, because if it was, you would have quite a bit more indignation about the Pharisees in your church who have no godly sorrow and refuse to repent. This is what we are all trying to bring about. God is using all the people you criticize to bring this about. By the way, I HAVE a life, and it's excellent. :) Tuesday, October 28th 2003 - 12:09:37 PM

Heather [e] Mike: Come here and take my hand. I want to show you something. We are walking along a road and here we pass a lone traveler. He is dressed in rags and dirt covers his face. We feel embarrassed for him as we pass and even glance his way to see if he sees us next to him. We do not say a word as we pass this man. We are happy with ourselves, we are finely dressed, our hair is neat and our face is clean. We wonder why this man looks this way, what is wrong with him we ask ourselves. But still we do not speak. Then you say to him 'Why don't you get some clean clothes and wash your face, you look gross'. The man is pained by your comment but only looks up at you and smiles. He says 'I have no home, it was taken from me. I cannot bathe, for I have no clean clothes to wear afterwards. I have been robbed. I am very hungry and am very lonely.' You do not feel any pity for this man, you continue to walk and put him out of your thoughts. This is what you have done Mike! The man on the road is like one who has left the ICC, that organization robbed us of our faith! It stole our trust! It crushed our love for eachother! And you look down on us and tell us to mind our business when we are trying to save people from that same destruction!! NO!!! We will not be quiet!! We will shout it out from the roof tops!! We will be heard!! And if we do not speak, even the stones will cry out!!! Shame on you for judging! Shame on you for thinking you are better!!! At least you are not like us right Mike? Is that what you tell your God when you pray to him? You have fallen from grace. YOU are the fall away. Your church will crumble because its foundation was NOT on Christ! Tuesday, October 28th 2003 - 10:49:53 AM

Joseph J. Frazier [e] People often chant that mantra, "God is in control" in order to divorce themselves from responsibility for doing anything, right or wrong. The fact is, "God is in control" is not in the bible. Do a search/study for yourself, and see how many times the word "control" even comes up. If God were "in Control," as you say, then why does evil exist? Why do cults pervert His gospel (good news) and make it out to be bad news? Why would He, if "in control," allow such evils to be perpetuated in His name as: A) The Crusades B) The Spanish Inquisition C) American Slavery D) THE INTERNATIONAL CHURCHES OF CHRIST And why is SELF-control one of the fruits of His Spirit, if He's such the control freak that you paint Him to be? The fact is, if not for those of us speaking up, the ICOC would continue with its standard operating procedure of information control. Why don't you take your own advice about reading your own bible? In it, there are plenty of scriptures that talk about how YOU, not He, are the one responsible for bringing about change in the Church. YOU, not HE, are the one responsible for taking care of false shepherds. Read the letters to the Corinthians, and the Revelation to John. You advocate "keeping opinions to ourself," but where is that in the Bible? - Joseph (morpheus) Tuesday, October 28th 2003 - 10:24:31 AM

ls "get a life." hmm. i think most people in touch with reality know that it's the ICOC members who need to get a life. but i guess you wouldn't know that. Monday, October 27th 2003 - 09:45:48 PM

Mike I think its time for all of you to get a life. Do you realize that there are many people in this Church that are extremely happy and want you people to mind your own business. Know one is holding you in the ICOC but I think Satan is holding you to putting it down, as if you think you are God. If God wants change, he will bring it. For those in the Church who are leading wrong, God will take care of them. If you really believe that it is wrong, then leave and keep your opinions to yourself. I believe that God is in control of my life and His Church. Maybe its time to let Him be in control. You post letters of people who can not forgive and say that they should be punished for the wrongs that they have done. I think you and I have done wrongs and I read in the Bible that my God is forgiving and loving, not full of bad comments, negative thoughts or postings of people who he considers bad or "don't get it". Try reading your Bible. Please post this on your site - or is this site only for the negative? Monday, October 27th 2003 - 07:29:46 PM

ls LOL, it is so funny to see these types of letters. You'd think they believe themselves to still part of a real church instead of a cult. Tuesday, September 2nd 2003 - 01:24:06 PM

Brian Moore [e] rBian,A disciple of Christ Jesus by the will of God,and to the church of the international Christians, together with all the saints throughout the world: Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the lord Jesus Christ. I always thank God for you because of his grace given you in Christ Jesus. For in him you have been enriched in every way-in all your speaking and in allyour knowledge--Because our testimony about christ was confirmed in you.Therefore you do not lack any spiritual gift as you eagerly wait for our Lord Jesus Christto be revealed. He will keep you strong to the end, so that you will be blameless on the dayof our Lord Jesus Christ. God, who has called you into our fellowship with his son Jesus Christ our Lord, is Faithful. I have been a Christian for some time now, attending areas in southcentral and other regions of Los Angeles. Praying and hoping to see a great change, I think it begins with sites such as the one we have here, and brothers and sisters who hearts are for Our Lord Jesus Chrit and not "Judas" leadership we have been seeing for quite some time now. Where did it go wrong ? I have come to a conclusion my fellow brothers and sisters we must say no not just to "kip" but all leadership and start a "Declaration of Idependence" If we don't declare war on all leadership than satan will seap back into the fellowship. We must band together as one in our Lord Christ Jesus and push out all the leadership and raise up new leaders and deal with each and every heart ache that ever accured from this "Judas leadership" Beginning with kip. Why would we allow these leaders to get back into the leadership not one should even be attending our fellowship , Matthew 18:15-18 Beginning in verse 17 If he refuses to listen to them ,tel it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or tax collector. I tell you the truth, whatever you bind on earth you bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven. We have allowed them to much power and it is time to take it back.No where in the words of our Father does it give leadership power.Hebrews 13:17 is emplying to leaders who are following the Bible, Which in many cases they'er not following the Bible. We as the body give them their authority and it is time to get it back. Do you really want the same people who have failed you time and time again, for years not just once or twice to stay in aurthity? But it will happen if everyone doesn't get to gether Jew and gentile and strenghthen one another to push all leadership out, I do mean all.Matthew 18;17 each one of them They past the fourth and final steps years ago. We owe them nothing and never have.Bring back all the souls who left Christ because of this fake "Judas Leadership" and turn the stakes oneach one of them by declaring an Independent Declaration in the ministry.Therfore, dear friends, since you already know this, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position. But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and forever! Amen. Monday, August 18th 2003 - 06:31:43 PM

Wendell Burnham [e] OPEN LETTER TO THE BRIDGETOWN CHURCH 23 July 2003 Wendell Burnham Since the letter written by Henry Kriete was published, much has transpired within the ICOC and we the BCC have been affected, as has every other church in the movement. We have been through difficult times in the past and the church has recovered. But this is different, this has struck at our fundamental beliefs and practices, this church has been shaken at its foundations and if no one has said it, let us be aware, the church is collapsing around us. Many of the points and issues raised by Henry Kriete, were pointed to the ICOC as an organisation, at the churches, including the BCC and at us as disciples within the church. Everything we were, or said we were, everything we prided ourselves on, our rituals, our structure, our institutions, they have all been put under the microscope, critiqued, often times blasted and now much of it has been effectively dismantled. We all took the opportunity to vent the hurt we had been subjected to, express our anger and frustrations, denounce and tear down aspects of our structure were we felt we had long been suppressed or wronged. We took the opportunity to get back at our leaders, to relinquish our responsibilities, and we all took this, as the time to generally minimize our participation in the many areas of our church lives as existed prior to February of this year. Our leaders during this period were ineffectual, maybe fearing the wrath of membership, sometimes prideful, even arrogant. Things were allowed to drag on with little or no attempt to effectual respond to the cries and pains of the church. There have been stuttering attempts to address this crisis. A new board has been elected (glaringly, with all new members) to take the church through this period. But we have already had resignation(s), criticisms of the board from all quarters and there has been a failure of the board to provide information to the church as was promised. The action committee has never really gotten into action. There has been an attempt to restart bible talks with what degree of success we are not too sure. We have been playing musical chairs with venues for church services. General church membership continues to grope in the dark as to direction church is taking. So, six months later we still can see no light at the end of the tunnel. Membership is dwindling, services are a pitiful shadow of what they used to be, contributions have become a dribble, enthusiasm and energy seem to be lost. The church, it seem is heading towards a total collapse faster than a freight train going downhill without brakes. This downhill spiral has to be stopped and stopped now and the impetuous has got to originate with leadership. OUR AUTONOMY There are certain fundamental questions that need to be asked and answered before we here as a church can climb out of our limbo and return to complete vibrancy. The church membership needs to know unequivocally the current status of the ICOC. Is this body still functioning as an organization? Is it still responsible for activities (in part or whole) of its member churches? Is this body still producing documented information (publications, KNN video) for distribution. What is the status of its leadership? Who is now leading the church and are there sector leaders or geographical leaders? What status has the Jean-Baptises over our congregation? What, if any reporting of our decisions and actions take place to these or any other leaders of the ICOC? BIG QUESTION. Are we then on our own? Are we as a church an autonomous body, and if not, what are our ties to the ICOC? Before we can implement any major change in church policy or structure, it would be necessary to know if suggested changes can be implemented by our local church leaders. (We seem to have been dancing around this issue over the past 6 months.) The ICOC too have had their struggles and challenges following the publishing of the Kriete letter. There has been leadership changes and resignations; there has been a supposed reorganizing of the structure; and there has been attempts to apologise for and correct some areas of wrong doings. Have they done enough? Are there further changes still to come? Consider this; If the changes we make in our structure, in our ideology, in what we believe, what we teach others, is radically different from that of the ICOC or what we as a church used to be prior to this current upheaval, would we want to remain within the same organization? To take this idea a little further, would we as a church ask other churches in the Caribbean to adopt a similar view, stance and action hence forming a united Caribbean Church? These are important questions to ponder as we look to reestablish what and who we are and in which direction or path we decide to go. But answers to these questions are needed before this church can move forward. These are awkward decisions (and only so because that was what we were weaned on and now have to be extricated from) that have to be made and taken in just about every area of our Christian beliefs and actions, our opinion of ourselves, the structure of the church, our relationships with one another, the way we teach the Bible, the approach to baptism, discipling, discipline, and many other areas, where we have over the past 6 months vented our anger, frustration but have done little else. Some of the things we are going to say may sound harsh, not all of you will agree with all of it, some of you may not agree with any of it, but the time has come (seriously) where we need to take our heads out of the sand, thinking all will return to normal if we do nothing and do what is needed, that is to replace, not ASAP, but right away the basic and fundamental structure and principles that that were unceremoniously discarded, before disciples become even more frustrated. We all love this church that is why most of us have continued to remain faithful. But without firm action, which has been of the premium we will continue to lose even our most committed disciples. THE STRUCTURE OF THE CHURCH LEADERSHIP: Ideally the church should be led by one man who is paid a salary to maintain his family. That said, we are aware in our present financial state, we can no longer afford to pay our church leaders. (so says the board) Never the less Jerry and Paul are still our leaders. They, more than anyone else understanding our present financial situation have accepted the boards decision. Its commendable that Jerry now has a full time job and Paul is seeking full time employment. We suggest that a third man be elected to form a triune of leaders, sharing the duties and responsibility of leadership. There is precedence in the bible for this. There was God, Jesus Christ and the holy spirit who worked in unison. (Three persons led the church in Jerusalem Gal 2:9). This arrangement though, should only persist as long as is necessary and as soon as the church is in a position to support our Minister we must be prepared to do so. It seems apparent, although no announcement has been made to such effect, that John Nurse has been asked or has stepped up to this position as third leader. We have no objection with John as leader but should the church not have been informed, and if it is not an official position we suggest that either John (or someone else) be formally asked to assist in leading the church. The person/persons elected to this position of leadership should have the qualities as set out by Paul to Timothy. (1 Tim 3) There are a number of other men who have already led this church and many other capable men who have not yet had the privilege, from whom to choose. What about women ministry leaders? In recent months the church has not been split into men and women sectors. There is seemingly no mention of split sessions in the bible and we feel we can continue to have the congregation together at all services. There are of course a number of areas women play a vital part in the function of any church; counseling, children, church preparation, fund raising etc. and no doubt our women will continue to play their part in these areas and others, as various elements of church organization are reconstituted. ELDERS: The first century church selected elders or deacons to run the affairs of the church. It is so vital for the continued spiritual and physical growth and prosperity of the church that the other critical elements of our church organization outside of leading the congregation, be well structured and managed. There are seven areas we can identify that has been part of or should be part of the church. These are Benevolence; Hope; Bible talks; Fund raising; Children church; Services coordination; Teen and campus ministry. (see Acts 1:21) One person should be selected to head each of these important areas of church life. This group of seven persons along with the church leaders, will co-ordinate all church activity. Each elder will select a team of persons, if needed, to work with him. Eg. Service coordinator needs ushers, servers etc. Children’s church leader needs teachers and so on. Note: These functions could over-lap those of the board. After inspection of the functions of the board a determination could be made to decide if this group will become what we call the board. SECRETARY/ACCOUNTANT: This position, be it part or full time will be a paid position and is going to be dependent on the volume of work. BIBLE TALKS: The bible talk is one area that has been sorely missed by many. We had advertised these groups as food, fun and fellowship and they were. These groups played a vital role in maintaining close relationships among disciples and served as a time of getting a varied viewpoint on bible lessons. This is the ideal forum into which to invite a non-disciple to learn more about the bible and to experience Christianity in an out of church setting. These units could consist of 12 persons plus a leader (number taken from the number of apostles Christ led) selected by the group. Twelve allows for varied viewpoints without it becoming too cumbersome to manage. The group leader, a single or married person will coordinate group activities. Persons should be free to be part of any group based only on its numerical content. Groups should contain a mixture marrieds, singles and teens, all of whom would have something to offer any grouping. As each group grows within the church through the baptizing of new disciples and as there are sufficient number of persons, a new group will be created. Group will meet a min of once every two weeks and will serve primarily to baptize new members into the church and to encourage one another. The location of these meetings, are to be determined by the group and do not necessarily have to be in the same place/home on every occasion. The day, time and place to be decided by the group. The format could remain very similar to what existed previously. THE STUDIES The present studies should be discontinued. We have come to understand that what we imposed on others to bring them into the kingdom was not of, or from the bible. There were things we taught that may have been unscriptural. There were things we indicated that we as a church were, that were wrong. The studies were too numerous leading up to baptism. In the first century church the main focus was on the study of the cross, and our need for repentance. (The Ethiopian in Acts 9 was told the good news of Jesus and understanding, asked to be baptized) Simple. Most people understand generally who God is, about Jesus Christ, and know what is the bible. We need to verify this understanding, and teach them the meaning of Christ death on the cross. This study, about 3 hours in duration (divided as per the individual need) should sufficiently prepare someone for baptism. (see Acts 4:2, 5:33, Acts 10:36, 40, 43) It should start with an acknowledgement that the bible is Gods word and end with an understanding that we are sinners and that it is only through Christ’s death that we have the opportunity of salvation. We shall not judge, we shall teach and guide and let the Gods sprit change hearts. (remember the story of Simon the sorcerer) A young Christian will continue to need guidance for the first several months after baptism. They will be asked to start reading the gospels, going through as well a number of scriptures provided during the study, that helps to fortify what they learnt in the study and given encouragement and guidance towards them becoming intrigal, vibrant member of our church. The bible talks will continue to nurture them and d-groups will answer their more difficult and personnel questions. DISCIPLING We suggest that general discipling be conducted in groups of 4 to 6 persons, of one sex, once every two week at a minimum. These meeting can be done on alternate weeks with the bible talk meetings. The young Christian will join such a group, which will further enhance his experience of living as a disciple. We at present have such a group that meets every week, to primarily encourage, motivate and learn from each other, to discuss areas of the bible that require a more in-depth study than is provided at bible talks and to share ones own conviction and walk with God. This should be the general focus of these group discipling times. For individual help on matters that may not be appropriate to discuss at this forum, a disciple can call on any other disciple or disciples he/she feels can council/advise him/her on that particular area/issue. CHILDRENS CHURCH This is one area that seems little affected by the upheaval of the past several months. There are though some areas that we need to look at where there has been some very valid questions raised. The first was the length of the term. Six months continuously away from main church was the objection by most persons. We would suggest the terms be reduced to three months. For continuity of teachers in classes, we suggest there be an overlapping arrangement with teachers where only one of the two teachers are moved every three months. This may be logistically difficult to implement. The alternative is to tailor or classes to fall into 4 month segments. We will need to look at the content of the material of Children’s Church to ensure what we are teaching the children as in keeping with what’s contained in the bible. CONTRIBUTIONS We suggest that special contribution be discontinued entirely. There are instances in the bible where there was special contribution and these were times when there was a specific need i.e. for church building. All of those instances were found in the old testament. We feel if there is a particular important church need (general running of the church not included) the church be told of the specific need and the amount needed and asked to contribute to meet that particular need. This method of contribution, must only be utilized on rare occasions of urgent/critical need. Or a special contribution fund could be set up for a specific purpose i.e. Building fund to which persons can make a voluntary contribution at their own discretion, anonymously to the fund. FUND RAISING We suggest a fund raising committee be set up to raise funds for specific areas of need in the church. Functions such as cake sales, car washes and walk-a-ton could be projects this committee could under-take. We suggest too a special building fund be set up towards the goal of the church eventually occupying our own building. FINANCES We firmly suggest that the church practices sound financial management. The church has preached often time in the past to the congregation, about prudent financial management and yet seem not to have heeded its own advise. The church should now realistically determine its income and tailor its budget accordingly, as opposed to setting out it’s expenditure then attempting to raise the necessary funds, which may have led to the disastrous state of our present finances. In the secular world its called corporate mismanagement, in the church it was accepted and tolerated for too long under the pretext that its Gods people spending Gods money. This church should no longer allow this to continue. Our financial system of accounting must be a sound, recognizable one, following strict accounting practices where all and we stress all receipts and payments are indicated. There is no reason why under any financial heading there is an indication of zeros for income, expenditure and balance if that is not the case. The church as we all realize has found itself in a financial straight jacket. We will not go backwards, though there is very good reason for looking back at our mistakes so these will not be repeated in the future. The church has been forced to cut costs in a number of areas, but must remain alert to other areas where further savings can be made. It would be very prudent at this time to rebuild our finances. Without knowing all the facts, one is left to wonder why we move back and forth between Sherbourne and the college. Our two major areas of expenditure have, it seems been resolved at present. Lets continue to be a church of prudence and sound financial management. When our finances have recovered and we know they will, let us put things in place so that we could eventually inhabit our very own building. We are sure that is the desire of most of us here present. TRANISITION FROM CHILDREN TO ADULT CHURCH It has been noted that many of our teen-age children are not becoming disciples during their teen-age years. We understand the difficult transition a child makes from pre-teen to teen-age years and suggest the church helps in this area by allowing a longer transition from children to adult church. We suggest one of several things: Start pre-teen class earlier (15 minutes) so allowing them to join adult church at the fellowship break. Alternate classes and church every other week. DISIPLINE The bible clearly set out how disciples should be disciplined.(Mat 18:15-17) This simple method should be applied to all disciples on disciplinary matters. EXPELLING MEMBERS There must be no pruning of weak disciples. Disciples should only be expelled (the very last resort) only after much help has been given to individual and who refuses to repent. We expelled members for sins of a sexual nature and do not place the same significance to sins, such as greed, idolatry, slander, drunkenness or swindling as mentioned in I Cor 5:2-11. RESTORATIONS Restorations of individuals should be done once the individual has repented and is ready to return to the body. There should not be long prescribed periods for persons to be asked to stay away from the congregation for frivolous reasons if not expelled. SUNDAY SERVICE Our services seem less enthusiastic than it has been in the past. This may be the result of what each of us is going through. There are some areas that needs modifying and strengthening. The format of the service should be modified: Half hour of uplifting music and song. Our music at present is lack-luster. We need to establish some form of accompaniment for the singing. We also need a lead vocalist or vocalists, not a song leader to lead the singing. (30 mins) At this point there should be the welcome and introduction of visitors. First time visitors should receive church informational material. (5 mins) Communion service: A reading; Song; Communion message and prayer; Communion; Song; (25 mins) Fellowship Break Song; Second reading; Message and response; (45 mins) Collection; Announcements; Closing songs (15 mins) THE NEW STUDY As was mentioned previously, how we bring new disciples into the church has to undergo a total make over. One of the most important of these is the study that prepares a person for baptism. This is a suggested first draft that could be developed by a small group, presented to the church for discussion and input then finalized as our new study. ONE GOD Eph 4: 4 - 6 THE WORD Rev 22: 18 – 19, Mat 24: 35, 2 Tim 3: 16, GODS LOVE John 3: 16 THE GIFT OF GOD Rom 6: 23, 1Cor 3: 6 JESUS MESSAGE Mark 1: 15 CHRIST TAUGHT Love enemies Luke 6: 27 – 28, Judge others Luke 6: 37, Tree/fruit Luke 6: 43, Wise builder Luke 6: 47 – 48, Faith Luke 6: 1 – 10, REPENTANCE Luke 24: 47, Acts 10: 42 - 48 WHY BAPTISE Mat 28: 19 – 20, Luke 24: 47, Acts 2: 38, Acts 11: 18 1Cor 10: 44 1Cor 12: 4 – 6, 1Cor 12: 13 Luke 15: 7, Luke 10: 31 – 32, A number of supplementary scriptures should to be added to further enhance and clarify the understanding to the meaning of being baptized. WHAT NEXT It has now been 6 months since the letter of H.Kriete was initially raised in the church. We have endured months of hurt and pain suffered by disciples. We have seen bickering, heated arguments and divisions, we have seen disciples take a back seat in church affairs, not wanting to be embroiled in the controversy. We have seen church membership dwindle as members are frustrated. But even more importantly we have seen the church stop doing those fundamental things that help us with our Christian walk. This will more than anything else have a devastating effect on our lives, our relationship with God and one another and the holding together of the basic fabric of the church. Some of the basics that served us well as a church in the pass needs to be revitalized if all be it not in the same form. This letter we hope is the beginning of the resuscitation of our church. Many disciples would have many other thoughts on how we can improve the worship to our God. But the time to act is now. The formation of the action committee was a great idea but they have not lived up to what was expected of them. What we need to do is give an action committee clear instruction of putting these and other thoughts on church structure and policy into reality within a specific time frame. Any disciple with thoughts or suggestions in these or any other areas of church activity could write them down and forward to the committee. We don’t think that either Paul or Jerry should serve on this committee. Let us all continue to pray for the church at this time. Monday, August 11th 2003 - 12:01:32 AM

ls I think if you use "bitterness" as your excuse to dismiss people who left the ICC, you're just projecting your own bitterness. For having a pathetic cult life built on persuasive sociopaths like McKean, regardless of whether he uses NLP. Tuesday, July 29th 2003 - 02:09:37 PM

Miguel [e] Whoever wrote that Kip uses "NLP"; I think that you are filled with bitterness and have nothing better to do than to hurt others. I think you need to start focusing on your own walk with God(if you got any)and stop talking trash that only hurts the faith of others. Miguel Serrano. Monday, July 28th 2003 - 02:08:56 AM

Steve [e] Well said, Salt Lake. I am feeling more anger than anything else as I read Kip's letter. Like Sam Laing said, "You still don't get it, Kip". As much as I admire Kip's faith, I'm doubly concerned that he honestly thinks he's some kind of prophet and has some kind of authority. He still has little to no idea how deeply he hurt so many people by his leadership "machine". You don't push a reset button on people's emotions. There are those that will never heal. There are people who have walked away from God because of the systemic evils that Kip had nurtured for all those years. He continues to defend the way things were done. News Flash - has it ever dawned on you Kip that you don't know what you're doing??? I have 2 challenges for Kip: 1. Get a regular non-ministry job like the rest of us. 2. Don't lead anything - be an everyday Christian like the rest of us. Or, you can expect the titheing to continue to drop until the janitor turns off the lights and locks the door for the last time. The congregation is speaking very loudly through the tithes just like you always used to say during those beloved Leader's meetings. Don't blame the fellowship (or Henry) for all the leaders that have left - the blame rests squarely on the shoulders of those who led this Kingdom. Kip's desire to see this Kingdom restored is respected but he has got to get out of the way and let others get it done. Tuesday, July 22nd 2003 - 12:57:22 PM

icc i totally agree - and i'm happy to continue to logically present all the arguments in favor of showing what demented, corrupt people are leading this "church." Monday, July 7th 2003 - 01:56:54 AM

Levi [e] Regarding what's happening in the NYCOC. WHY ARE YOU SUPRISED?? No elder will give up a career and salary for you guys. They'd much prefer to get rid of you all and start from scratch. My question to you is this, why don't you just leave (as I did 2 years ago) and find a church that will support and love you NOT abuse and manipulate you??I check these sites every so often and it seems like many of you are stuck in a moment that you can't get out of. If Christ is everywhere why not find HIM elsewhere? Just my two cents. Thursday, July 3rd 2003 - 02:41:31 PM

ls yeah right. same people, different name. and in many cases, same name. Tuesday, June 24th 2003 - 06:20:14 PM

Steve 1. No ICC formula here - the ICC no longer exists, its going away 2. Fuqua - your preaching to the choir 3. I'm over it, she's not my daughter and apparently doesn't seem to care herself ?!? Thursday, June 19th 2003 - 04:54:43 PM

ls The ICC / religious formula for distracting from the IMPORTANT issues: <spouts moralistic opinion> + <clucks tongue, wags finger> = distraction ! The fact that the Wooten's daughter's personal trauma is up on the web is not the main issue. The fact that FUQUA reacted to her in such an abusive and cold manner is the point. If you don't want to see it public, too bad. It's up. Get over it. Thursday, June 19th 2003 - 02:46:01 PM

Steve P How unfortunate. A parents first priority should be that of protecting their children - not exposing them to this. As we parents know, young people need guidance and often truly don't understand the consequence of their decisions. Thats what our job as parents is; to protect them and help them understand how they will be impacted by allowing things like this to unfold. Nobody can convince me that this young lady prefers here name and experience to now (with your help)be posted on the Internet all over the world. Wooten's, how do you feel about that? Friday, June 13th 2003 - 06:11:11 PM

icc This is a reminder that the info presented in this blog has permission to go public by the authors. The Wooten's daughter chose to go public with her experience, and so it will remain here. Friday, June 13th 2003 - 01:06:56 PM

Steve P [e] Greetings LA, As a member of the ICOC and having resided in the Inland Empire in the past, I have some not-so-good memories of the LA church. I won't go into detail other than to say that Marty Fuqua was part of those memories. Of course, he wasn't the only one in what I would consider an abusive legalistic regiment. My reason for this writing is I have known of the Wooten's service for years to God and the flock and it is much appreciated. However, as a Teen parent I must say it pains me to see their daughter's tragedy being discussed on the Internet. This is wrong and needs to stop immediately. Nobody but her immediate family needs to know anything about this and this continues to erode any trust that anyone would have in being open about personal issues in their everyday life. Especially one as sensitive as this with such a young person at such a vulnerable and emotional time in her life. This needs to go off-line. The LA leadership has made a bed that they have to lay in (alone) now and it pains all of us to see so many good people leave - we are going the wrong direction as this what not what the Lord had meant as a narrow gate. David Graham and the NYCOC CR groups gave us a vision for creative ministry's and a way to connect with those "artsy" or distant people (I'm a musician) like myself. It saddens me to see the way they were treated. Its getting harder to fight back the feeling that this was all for nothing. Amen for the fellowship and the ones who truly love one another. Bag the rest of 'em, they need to go find someone else to harrass !!! Friday, June 13th 2003 - 12:35:59 PM

Sophia [e] Thank you for presenting all sides of the craziness that is the ICOC today. I myself have been a member since 1990. I feel that I learned the truths of the bible & was able to become a true follower of Jesus with the studies & knowledge I got from attending & being in the church family here. At the same time because I have learned to have a personal relationship with GOD & recognize sin, I feel that the recently & formally revealed truths about the ICOC'S leadership are sinful, unrightoues, & not of God. Hopefully, prayerfully the guilty parties will get with GOD & turn themselves around. My prayers are with everyone I know & do not know. I am just making sure that me & my family know & follow Christ not leaders of churches.(I learned that here to) SOPHIA WILLIAMS LA Church Thursday, June 12th 2003 - 12:15:53 AM

icc Yes, I know that the Wooten letter is VERY long, and I personally do not have the patience to sort through the whole thing, not today anyway. Would appreciate if someone could come up with some kind of "quick and dirty" summary and post it here. Thanks! Wednesday, June 11th 2003 - 12:59:00 AM

icc [h] Let ICOC News Blog know your thoughts on these articles. Wednesday, May 14th 2003 - 04:27:34 PM

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