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Sunday, April 25th 2004 - 07:45:34 PM
Name: Eddie Comments: Congrats to JC for making that all important step.
Justin, I know how you feel. I've been there many times. All I can say is, "Don't give up on Jehovah." It's taken me a long time to learn this. If I could go back through time, I would to save myself all the pains I've put myself through. Just when I was about to give up, I found this website. Now I really know that Jehovah loves all of us. Now we have each other to inspire to love and fine works. If you would like to chat, him me up.
Eddie
Sunday, April 25th 2004 - 07:44:54 PM
Name: Eddie Comments: Congrats to JC for making that all important step.
Justin, I know how you feel. I've been there many times. All I can say is, "Don't give up on Jehovah." It's taken me a long time to learn this. If I could go back through time, I would to save myself all the pains I've put myself through. Just when I was about to give up, I found this website. Now I really know that Jehovah loves all of us. Now we have each other to inspire to love and fine works. If you would like to chat, him me up.
Eddie
Sunday, April 25th 2004 - 07:14:12 PM
Name: Eddie Comments: I want to thank Phil for this website. I don't see anything wrong with the name "Gaywitness". That's what I am. It made it posible to find this site in the search engine.
I'm now aproaching 40 and was raised in the truth. I love Jehovah with all my heart, but as you know being gay can be hard. I have drifted in and out of the truth many times, trying to fill the void of lonliness. Many times using sex to fill that void. It never did. I always need to come back to serve Jehovah. My friendships and relationships with people in the world never lasted. They lacked the fruitages of the spirit. I've been back for more than two years now and am stronger than ever and lonelier than ever. I'm in a small congregation in New Jersey where everyone is married and most are related to each other. I haven't been able to make any friends in my congregation. You know how it is, couples and singles don't mix. They are like oil and water. I feel that I just don't fit in. I always felt that I was the only Gaywitness in the world. I so glad to see that I not alone. I'm hoping that this site can bring me some peace of mind and posibly some friendships.
If anyone would like to chat, hit me up.
Eddie
Tuesday, April 20th 2004 - 03:47:00 PM
Name: Heather Comments: This is my first time here, I am just kinda looking around, seems like a nice site. I couldn't get into the forum without a password though, so I'm not quite sure how I get a password. Well anyways, talk to ya'll later!
~Heather
Sunday, April 18th 2004 - 04:40:06 PM
Name: jc Comments: Hey everyone! i wasent in this site for a while, i jsut wanted to send my greetings to all of u, if u wanna contact me go ahead tj_chih@yahoo.es and tjchih@hotmail.com, the sities like this and the brothers like me really encourage me. I will get baptized in 6 days (saturday, april 24, 2004) and im 16 years old.
take care
Saturday, April 17th 2004 - 12:17:23 AM
Name: Alex Comments: Hi everybody,
Just wanted to say how informative the postings are, a real source of encouragement and very instructive.
Thanks Phil for all your hard work in keeping it going.
And Justin, now you've found us here, I'm sure we can be of help to you in getting back on the 'road' again. Some of us have had the same experience.
With brotherly affection to you all, Alex.
Tuesday, April 13th 2004 - 08:58:52 AM
Name: justin Comments: I'm not in the truth currently. I hate it. I'm 33 and I grew up in the truth. When I was younger we did not have groups like this and I think this is a great idea.
I don't think the sex is the hardest part in dealing with this problem. The being alone is. I wish I could change my life and be as determined and strong as you all are in the faith. The temporary enjoyment of sin is not worth the loss of eternal life. I'm not against the truth at all I just can't seem to get my life in order.
Wednesday, April 7th 2004 - 04:46:32 PM
Name: Joshua Bailey Comments: With his approval, Joshua's moving post has been transferred to the Message forum, where I hope others will respond to it.
Phil.
Wednesday, April 7th 2004 - 04:16:07 AM
Name: Phil Homepage URL: http://www.witnesses.plus.com Comments: Dear Steff,
Thank you for your posting.
I am sorry to learn that there are inaccuracies in the article on transsexualism. I am most keen that it should be factually accurate, and if you would please write again with a note of the inaccuracies, I will endeavour to have corrections made. It is important that people are not given erroneous information.
As to the tone being patronsising, well, I should be sorry to think that that was so, but again, if you would care to point out examples, I may try and arrange a re-write.
The author offers a PERSONAL OPINION on the possibility that there is some as-yet-undiscovered chemical system, abnormality of which is responsible for various difficulties including transsexuality. The opinion is offered with the phrase “For what it is worth – probably very little!”.
If there is such a ‘biological basis’, i.e, if it is discovered that there is a chemical ‘thing’ that produces transsexual feeling in a chromosomally normal body, what then? Would the answer not be to correct the chemical ‘thing’ rather than to alter the body? This has actually had discussion in this guestbook.
The “biological basis” thus referred to, was intended to mean a chemical abnormality of some sort. Surgery would not correct such an abnormality, but would more closely conform the body to the sex-identity produced by the chemical abnormality.
The reference to reversing surgery was not a personal recommendation by the author, but was a statement of what the author understood to be the position of Jehovah’s witnesses respecting a person with a body chromosomally of one sex, which had been altered to resemble the other. Whether that position has changed, I am not personally able to say.
The author pointed out that the article was not referring to intersex cases, where the biological sex of the body is equivocal. Individuals in that position would no doubt need to proceed on the basis of the best medical advice, and it would not (I imagine) be for Christian elders to make rulings on the biological sex of a person with mosaic pattern chromosome abnormality, for example.
I am genuinely eager for this article to be factually correct, and for it not to sound patronsing. If you would care, please, to provide further information, I will see what can be done to correct any errors in a re-write.
This site is not, of course, intended to be a medical reference work of any sort. But it should get its facts right!
Thank you.
Phil.
Tuesday, April 6th 2004 - 05:52:09 PM
Name: Steff Comments: The article on transsexualism on this site is both contradictory and inaccurate, not to mention hugely patronizing. The author acknowledges the likely biological basis for TSism, yet we are told that those of us fortunate enough to have had surgery to correct (as far as possible) this anomaly should have it reversed. Hmmm. Very strange!
Monday, April 5th 2004 - 07:22:01 PM
Name: NQ Comments: It's good to see everyone still holding fast to what is fine. I couldn't help but think of our collective situations during the Memorial talk last nite. I sat there at the end a breathed a sign of relief. Our Lord Jesus recognizes our struggle and gave his life to lift this burden from us in Jehovah's due time. You brothers and sisters have really help this event come alive for me this year. I've begun to see it more on a personal level that the ransom is for ME. I am the sister who momentarily gave into her desires and now feels unloved and worthless. Now I am more focused on my compassionate, humble king Jesus Christ and want so much to hear the same words of the evildoer next to him - "I promise, you will be with me in paradise." I will lift you up and stand by you and support u until you are the complete well person you want to be
Monday, April 5th 2004 - 01:07:19 PM
Name: Seb Comments: Phil
Interesting comparison with Diabetes. But I heve never seen The Watchtower endorse any type of psychotherapy for any form of mental illness or addiction and feel it highly unlikely it ever will. That's not to say it places an embargo upon an individual trying it. I do know of one long serving Bethelite who frequently recommends a counsellor, but it's not for reparative therapy.
Monday, April 5th 2004 - 05:31:50 AM
Name: Phil Homepage URL: http://www.witnesses.plus.com Comments: Hello Seb,
Broadly, I agree with your comments. There is a fairly extensive and very high quality discussion thread on this matter in the Discussion Forum of this site, and I don't want to repeat it here. But here are a couple of thoughts.
I respect very much the thoughtful approach of brothers (reparative therapy for some reason doesn't focus on women) who have tried or are trying this "therapy", and I am genuinely most interested to hear about the results of their continuing experience.
The discussion is not an academic one, as far as life in the Christian congregation is concerned. Why? Well, to illustrate:
The Watchtower Society's publications do not recommend particular treatments for various health conditions. Nonetheless, certain treatments are so well-established as to be considered absolutely standard.
For example, it is very well understood that a perticular set of symptoms arises when the Islets of Langerhans in the Pancreas do not produce the substance called Insulin. A disease results called Diabetes. This has been well understood for a very long time, and treatment is well-established, involving Insulin injections and dietary management.
There must be a huge body of clinical evidence for standard diabetes treatment.
NOW, the Bible does not mention Islets of Langerhans, or Pancreas, or Insulin. BUT, if a Christian stubborny refused to acknowledge a diagnosis of Diabetes, and refused treantment, and dietary mangement, and in consequence became ill unto the point of death, there ARE Bible principles that one might adduce - one could say that he was not "sound in mind", and therefore lacked that necessary qualification to serve as an elder. He might even be subject to strong counsel and/or discipline, considering principles such as respect for life. Basically, medical treatment of Insulin-dependent diabetes is NOT OPTIONAL for a Christian.
IF Reparative Therapy works, it CANNOT BE OPTIONAL for a Christian of homosexual orientation. We MUST undertake it. Failure to undertake a proven, established, successful method of conversion would give evidence that we do not desire to change our feelings. Could this lead to disfellowshipping from the Christian Congregation?
But at the moment, there seems to be a complete lack of reputable peer-reviewed clinical evidence of efficacy (or safety) for Reparative therapy.
The more I read about it, the more I get the sense of "mirage" - the shimmering oasis of 'cure' in the distance proves, upon approach, to be an illusion.
That is my view at the moment, folks, but I would stress that I am utterly open to evidence, and respect very much the views and responses of the brothers who are trying it.
There are links to information about the recent furore over the Spitzer study in the Discussion Forum thread. Spitzer's work is interesting and honest.
Regards,
Phil.
Sunday, April 4th 2004 - 03:39:20 PM
Name: Seb Comments: Phil, I'd read the article in The Guardian too. It left me with the impression that while the therapy may result in changes of behaviour, any evidence of further changes is inconclusive. You've probably also read the same blog that I have, by some one currently trying the techniques associated with reparative therapy, and I can't say I find its efficacy particularly convincing. What do you think?
Sunday, April 4th 2004 - 04:44:52 AM
Name: Phil Homepage URL: http://www.witnesses.plus.com Comments: Joshua Bailey, thanks for that lovely post. Nice to see you again, hope you're doing well.
I love your literary tautology at the end - "mundane world". Great!
Phil.
Sunday, April 4th 2004 - 04:28:08 AM
Name: Phil Homepage URL: http://www.witnesses.plus.com Comments: The UK-based quaility newspaper The Guardian for Saturday 3rd April 2004 carried a most interesting reprt by columnist Decca Aitkenhead, about a seminar in Tennessee USA for reparative therapy.
The article goes to to give a very broad and superbly-reasoned look at the concepts of "ex-gays" and "ex-ex-gays".
It is extremely well-reasoned and balanced and incorporates the recent stuff about Dr Spitzer.
The URL for the online version is
www.guardian.co.uk/weekend/story/0,3605,1183596,00.html
The article is called "Going Straight".
Sunday, April 4th 2004 - 04:23:47 AM
Name: Phil Homepage URL: http://www.witnesses.plus.com Comments: Hi folks,
The November 1999 Kingdom Ministry carried a lengthy (36 paragraphs!) article about the internet, and I would definitely recommend reviewing it.
It makes very good points, and believe me, I don't run this site without regard to what it says about possible dangers.
Kind regards,
Phil.
Saturday, April 3rd 2004 - 07:50:01 PM
Name: Todd Ritchie Comments: Hello, Everyone!
Just a note to all of you saying hello and to keep the posts coming.
You have no idea how important they are!
Thursday, April 1st 2004 - 11:57:54 AM
Name: joshua bailey Comments: I'm a 22-year-old male, raised in the truth, and I turn 23 the day after the Memorial. Concentrating on the example of Jesus, whom we are supposed to be imitating, it seems that this relatively small section of Jehovah's people has one advantage: Jesus, also being male, was, I'm sure, expected to be sexual, but he was entirely committed to his father, Jehovah. "Jehovah is a Spirit, therefore those worshipping Him must serve Him also in spirit and in truth." Also, it is written: "Deaden your body members as respects fornication, uncleanness." Jesus lived His whole life as a human--all 33 years--without being sexual, so that he could give to Jehovah the "exclusive devotion" that He is exacting from all of us. Marriage is a provision, but it seems to me that Jehovah values our service especially, since we have resolved to give ourselves completely to our Creator and Father, Jehovah, who "will never allow the righteous one to totter," and who "is making all things new." So let's just wait, enduring, knowing there is much more than this life now in a mundane world.
Tuesday, March 30th 2004 - 02:13:22 AM
Name: Phil Homepage URL: http://www.witnesses.plus.com Comments: Vigoureux, I tried twice to reply to your private email to me, but got a reply saying it was blocked. If you give me a way to get in touch with you, I can respond to your request.
Best regards,
Phil.
Wednesday, March 10th 2004 - 05:47:16 AM
Name: Phil Homepage URL: http://www.witnesses.plus.com Comments: PASSWORD
Dear all,
Please note that access to the Message/Discussion Forum is now by password. I have emailed previous contributors with the password. If by mistake I missed you out, I apologise, and please get in touch and I will give you the password.
Guestbooks are in general available for all to see, but Discussion Forums (fora???) may more appropriately be reserved for particpants only.
Wednesday, March 10th 2004 - 05:42:50 AM
Name: Phil Homepage URL: http://www.witnesses.plus.com Comments: Todd,
Welcome! So many of us have experienced the same feeling as you - that "I must be the only one in the world in all the congregations, and I have NO-ONE to talk to who will understand".
We have all been through the amazement and the joy of finding that there were other brothers and sisters in the same position, and we have benefited so much from reading the encouraging things they have said.
Wasn't it interesting that the Awake! last year on Post-Partum depression gave, as the Number One Tip to help such mothers, "Talk to other Mothers". Why? Because among the other mothers, there will be some who have shared the same difficulty, and talking to them will undoubtedly help.
In our situation too, we need to "Talk to other brothers and sisters". Some of them too will share the same problem, and have helpful things to say.
BUT, the problem is, to find WHICH of the brothers and sisters. Happily in recent decades, since the 1970s, depressive illnesses have 'come out of the closet', and it isn't now seen as such a shameful thing to talk about. In our situation, though, things are different. That is where sites like this may halp - they may aid us to find which of the brothers and sisters can help us, for it is not otherwise easy to identify those.
Of course, there are risks with such a venture as this, and I did not undertake this site and guestbook without considerable reservation, and without regard to what the Society's publications have said about the internet. And indeed, when I commenced this site, I really only intended it as a temporary measure while another site, "jwsupport" was down. But since that site went offline, after several years of good work by its originator, I decided to keep this one going.
So far, the indications are that the good it accomplishes outweighs any risks by a very considerable margin.
Todd, I hope that you will find encouragement and support here, and please share any observations of your own that you think are helpful.
Kind regards,
Phil.
Tuesday, March 9th 2004 - 11:35:53 AM
Name: Todd Ritchie Comments: I thank Jehovah for this site.
I used to think that I was all alone or that if there were others that where going through what I'm going through, that they would continue to suffer in silence as I am.
I'm writing this with tears in my eyes because now I know that with the support and encouragement from all of you,
I'll be able to cope with this "thorn in the flesh" after all.
May Jehovah continue to bless all of you.
Todd
Tuesday, February 24th 2004 - 06:27:05 PM
Name: bri Comments: Hi Brett. I really feel for you and can`t imagine the emotional turmoil you are facing. It must be much more difficult even than the struggle that we who have the proper sex but not the proper desires. Hang in there. You`re doing the right thing in staying close to the bros. the best way you can and the cong. I know you may have heard this many times but at your age the "bloom of youth" hormones can have a pretty strong effect on you, they did me and still do although a little less.
I was thinking about your situation and wondering maybe if Jah will change you to the sex you were supposed to be in the new system. It is a possibility, is it not?
I wish you the best. Hello to everybody out there!!
Tuesday, February 24th 2004 - 04:49:38 PM
Name: Jose Comments: Hello everyone!... I just wanted to thank everyone that makes this page possible and interesting, especially the owner. This "UNDISCOVERED CIRCUIT" is completely new to me, I didn't know that homosexual brothers, spoke openly about their situations like this!... I just discovered this page last night, already made new friends and WOW, where was I all this time!.... Nothing has ever relieved me as a homosexual brother, than discovering that many, many other brothers go through the same feelings and yet, maintain their faith and hope as any other hetero brother would. This site just made me see things so differently!... It will definitely be a must see, everytime I turn on my computer!... Thanks again everyone!... You all have a new friend here!
Friday, February 13th 2004 - 03:56:19 PM
Name: Brett Comments: Being a man physically, my attraction to other men means that I am gay.
I know I shouldn't masturbate or ever engage in gay sex or loose conduct.
Essentially I am expected to live this temporary life as a completely sexless being. Ignore my raging hormones, my impulses, urges, cravings, my treacherous heart ... ignore all that and live life with useless organs that I don't want.
What would the problem be in my changing gender surgically if I still continue to remain chaste? At least then I would feel COMFORTABLE in my skin. I've accepted my fate in this life ... I'll never have a mate/companion/spouse in the normal sense of the words. At least without the offending organs, masturbation and engaging in gay sex would no longer be possible. Chances are orgasm would never be achieved anyway ...
Guess I just can't let the idea go completely. Sorry.
I've been talking to a witness named John and another named Scott and they've been a tremendous help.
I've read about organizations like Exodus and wonder why the Governing Body doesn't try to form one like that? A reprogramming boot camp for gays who want to be straight. It must work for some people right?
I spoke before about how members of my congregation seem to treat people. I've noticed that kids around my age don't like socializing with a 'sissy boy' like me. Their parents have MADE them invite me to bowling parties or skating parties or barbeque's, but there's still a huge block in any friendship forming. I still feel I have to act "BUTCH" or they're never going to like me. But that isn't me. I'm not a typical guy ... I'm just me and I act the only way I've ever acted and to do anything else would be unnatural. Surprisingly even the sisters my age just don't know how to befriend me ... but I'm working on it I guess!
Sunday, February 8th 2004 - 05:16:48 PM
Name: ruca Comments: Hi,
I've just read a page on John, a gay Jehovah's Witness. I wonder if you could send him my e-mail or give me his as I find my experience very similar to his.
Sincerely,
ruca
Friday, January 30th 2004 - 11:04:08 AM
Name: passing through Comments: Re: a question asked on the TS page.
I've just found this site following a link found in a search on religion and transsexuality. On the TS page the author comments on TS people returning to their former role but comments that he does not know the number. The article in this journal ( http://www.symposion.com/ijt/ijtc0502.htm ) puts the figure at less than 2% having 'regret' (which includes regret due to consequences e.g. family or social rejection).
Thursday, January 15th 2004 - 04:10:14 AM
Name: Phil Comments: Folks, you might like to avail yourselves of the Discussion Forum now part of the gaywitness site. It may be a better means of discussion than this guestbook. I am trying it as an experiment to see how it goes.
Best regards,
Phil.
Tuesday, January 6th 2004 - 06:44:50 PM
Name: DD Comments: Hey, I haven't posted here in a long while. I just wanted to know if everyone is loving our new bookstudy publication, Worship the Only True God? What has been your favorite chapter so far? There was a scripture in this week's ch. 12 that I thought was very fitting and encouraging to me, but I forgot it, and the book's in my car! I'll be sure to post it later.
Thursday, January 1st 2004 - 05:15:03 AM
Name: Phil Comments: Hi all,
chcjcamo, I've not had any reply from "James" of jwsupport, about using his guestbook. So I guess I have to let it stand. I don't think it would be right to put it on the gaywitness site without prior approval.
I know what you mean, it seems a pity to lose all those posts, which contained some very fine, heartfelt expressions.
Then again, however, people move on, and maybe someone posting in, say, 1999, wouldn't like their postings appearing afresh in another place in 2004.
So, i'm afraid I have to let it go, unless I hear from "James".
Best wishes all,
Phil.
Friday, December 26th 2003 - 09:04:53 AM
Name: chcjcamo Comments: Hi Phil. I just read your comments regarding the JW Support guestbook. I hope it is possible to salvage them. It would really be a shame to lose all those fine postings. Please let us know if you are able to post them for all to see. Thanks!
Tuesday, December 23rd 2003 - 05:52:12 PM
Name: Phil Homepage URL: http://www.witnesses.plus.com Comments: The Nigerian Millions Scam.
Some of you may have received emails in connection with this scam. I am sorry about this, but there is nothing I can do to stop it. These people find email addresses and spam them. Before the days of the internet, the scam was worked by post, and many years ago I received such a letter in the post.
The essence of the scam is this: Someone purporting to be an official in Nigeria or Cote D'Ivoire or Taiwan or somewhere else remote from you, writes asking to use your bank account to "hide" twenty million dollars, in return for which service, you will receive the interest, or part of the capital, or somesuch.
IT IS A WELL-KNOWN, AND AN OLD, CONFIDENCE TRICK
Those who are duped are then asked for money, to facilitate some kind of official form-filling, and they may be asked for a succession of relatively small sums, with the prospect of the millions always dangling as the carrot in front.
Strange as it seems, people have been taken in by this.
I am very sorry that some who posted to gaywitness, and put thier email address, have had their address 'vacuumed up' by these con artists.
I am sure that you know not to respond, but simply to ignore. Any response indicates that your email address is active.
Best regards,
Phil.
Saturday, December 20th 2003 - 06:30:29 PM
Name: bri Comments: Hi all:
I really feel for you Brett and hope you will get through your painful situation. We must all remember that this is temporary, as difficult as it may seem at times to do.
A close freind who is a C.O. told me once that when he first became a C.O., he was at bethel for a few days and one of the overseers called him into his office and said outright. "So mr.new c.o., what are you gong to do if a transexual wants to come into the truth?"
So he basically told him that such a person would have to change back to their original gender in order to be baptized. I hope this won`t discourage you, it`s just that the question was raised and I was given the answer by him.
As hard as it is to do such, I can see the logic behind it, as in the new system all of our divers imperfections will be made normal and perfect by our creator. In waiting for such please hang in there.
Take care
Thursday, December 18th 2003 - 01:52:54 PM
Name: Brett Comments: Thanks guys. I really do appreciate your replies to my messsages. Kurt, I've noticed that confiding to friends, family, or brothers seems IMPOSSIBLE. They always tell someone else, be it they're 'seeking council' or just 'gossiping'. In my personal experience I've heard a LOT of gossip! In no time at all it goes around until the whole congregation knows.
And a lot of my frustration is in the fact that when you have something like this going on, you are still formally a member in good standing ... but you are treated differently ... even if your fellow members don't realize they are doing so ... if they know, they treat you different.
And Phil,
"Well, here’s another way to think, related to the Blue Pill analogy that appeared on jwsupport ages ago. Supposing they found a physical, chemical cause, AND made a pill to correct it so that you would now feel that you were the same sex as your body: Would you take the pill? Or would you argue for the knife to change the body?"
My answer is this: If there were a pill that took away the inner conflict and craziness, I'd take it. If it made my brain male, to fit the body I have, I'd take it. But since there is no pill to change my brain to fit my body, the only option is to change my body to fit my brain ... or live with the conflict.
Wednesday, December 17th 2003 - 04:34:05 PM
Name: Phil Homepage URL: http://www.witnesses.plus.com Comments: Dear Brett,
Please don’t apologise for your post. It makes a lot of sense, and doesn’t sound like a tantrum at all. It sounds like the musings of a very thoughtful person undergoing an understandable huge frustration.
If you really really want me to remove your post, I will. But I would much rather it was left in, for I think it raises interesting points, and may prove helpful to others visiting the site.
I have been thinking today about what to say in reply. Here goes, and please remember that these are just my thoughts, and I’m neither a medical nor a spiritual expert!
You ask whether someone with physical sex abnormalities can, after surgical correction to the extent possible, be baptised and perhaps marry. As far as I understand it, that is the position. (This is borne out by a comment in a letter from the WT Society in response to a query respecting transsexual feelings).
A fascinating TV science programme in Britain some years ago looked at cases of sex anomalies including hermaphroditism. Some children (and some animals) are born with sex organs so ambiguous that is simply isn’t possible to tell which sex they are. These abnormalities of the ‘secondary sexual characteristics’ – the genital makeup – may or may not be accompanied by some chromosomal abnormality. In other cases, problems become evident only at puberty, when individuals start to develop sexual organs of the opposite sex to what they have lived up to then. (A man was featured, a teacher in an African country, who, as an adult, found to his distress that his penis was disappearing and breasts and female genitalia were developing. He was absolutely certain that he was male, however, and viewed the changes with horror). It is complex, and without writing a lengthy piece and doing a lot of research, I cannot describe all variations fully.
If someone had one of these medically recognised physical difficulties, it would not be for elders, I think, to make judgements about the sex of an individual. They would, I guess, accept the word of doctors.
In most cases of transsexuality or Gender Identity Disorder, however, there simply does not appear to be any physical abnormality of the body. The person appears to have normal physical features and chromosomal makeup at cellular level. The simple fact is that no-one seems to know WHY some persons with normal bodies are convinced that the body is the wrong sex for the person inside.
Brett, I am writing this in somewhat clinical terms, but I want to reassure you that I fully recognise the human implications and that I have in the past made the topic of transsexuality a matter of prayer on bended knee, and that the very first person I ever came out to about my own homosexual orientation, was a person with transsexual feelings.
You make a valid point about the frontiers of medical knowledge. The Watchtower Society can only apply Scriptural principles to medical matters as far as medical science is understood at the time. It is only the accumulated sound medical evidence on the harmful affects of tobacco use, for example, that provides a basis to say that using it contravenes scriptural principles so badly that Christians cannot do it. If medical science had shown that tobacco was harmless and not truly habit-forming, then you could not be disfellowshipped for using it!
What then if medical science in the future discovers some physical factor that underlies transsexualism?
I don’t know! I can see what you’re asking – Now you know it’s physical, like some other syndromes, can you do something about it with surgery, to get the body to conform to the perceived gender?
Well, here’s another way to think, related to the Blue Pill analogy that appeared on jwsupport ages ago. Supposing they found a physical, chemical cause, AND made a pill to correct it so that you would now feel that you were the same sex as your body: Would you take the pill? Or would you argue for the knife to change the body?
A sterile exercise maybe, since no such pill exists. But it MIGHT help us to analyse our faith. The Blue Pill, incidentally, is a total cure for homosexual orientation, without side-effects and without otherwise changing the personality. The ‘gay’ brother or sister is asked, Would you take the pill? How long would you hesitate?
On the matter of tests: From what you say of your stature, Brett, it doesn’t sound as if you have Klinefelter’s syndrome. But, it MIGHT be worth considering consulting a specialist, since you do seem to have some physical characteristics in addition to your internal feelings. I am not any kind of medical expert, and maybe it would be appropriate to consult one.
One the point of a man still being a man even if castrated – yes, he would still be a man, for he would still have the Y chromosome in the nucleus of every cell in his body.
Respecting the matter of confiding in an elder, or elders, I am afraid that caution is necessary. Much has been said of this, in quite strong terms, in an essay entitled The Undiscovered Circuit, which, as reported here some weeks ago, was sent to the Teaching Committee of the Governing Body. I have permission to quote from it, but rather than do so here, I am putting the relevant section of it on a new page of the website.
I am sure there is much more to be said Brett, but it’s late and I am tired and have had a horrible week in which my favourite work colleague died. So I will close for now. But be assured of my warmest good wishes, and if you care to email me privately in case there are issues you don’t want to air here, that’s fine.
Phil.
Wednesday, December 17th 2003 - 02:23:05 PM
Name: Kurt Comments: Hey all! just wanted to check in and say hi. "HI!" Also, i'm at a loss for the correct thing to say at the moment.... but I had to respond to Brett. Brett... you are not alone... you are loved. Even though I cannot understand what you are going thru from your standpoint... I can somewhat understand your loneliness. I can relate to your instance of being approached by the brothers. I was approached also because of what someone thought was a way of "helping" me. A family member whom I trusted and came out to... contacted my elders and told them I was "coming out as a homosexual". How far from the truth that was. I'm not sure of how anyone else views this, but when I accepted the fact that i'm gay and I still can be a Witness... I was elated. I feel better about myself that I've accepted that i'm gay and have integrated this aspect into my being.
Okay, now that i've rambled.... I will let others talk on here. Hope to hear from you soon, Brett. remember that there are those of us out there that truely care about you.
Love, Light, & Laughs!!
Wednesday, December 17th 2003 - 02:10:02 PM
Name: Brett Comments: Sorry about the last post. I was sort of having a frustration tantrum. I doubt much of it makes sense. I wish I could delete it and take it back now.
Wednesday, December 17th 2003 - 02:35:23 AM
Name: Brett Comments: I'm not posting this to really argue with anyone, but this has been on my mind for a few days ...
"Various conditions can give rise to ambiguity about sex. There are physical problems which can produce what is sometimes called ‘hermaphrodite’ sexual organs – not clearly male or female. And there is a disorder called Klinefelter’s Syndrome in which the person’s sex chromosomes are not XX (female) or XY (male), but are XXY. In these cases which have a physical basis, individuals have to make conscientious decisions in consultation with the medical profession. In speaking of Transsexuals, though, I am discussing those whose physical body is a normal body."
The above being quoted from your transexual page, I have a couple questions (one hypothetical) and also a point.
If you have a VISIBLE physical basis such as ambiguous organs, abnormal chromosomes, you are allowed to make a conscientious decision and consult with a doctor for surgerical correction to the gender you feel you should be? And then due to these circumstances you can possibly be baptised? Is this correct? Can they also marry as this new gender?
Those were a few questions ... now I have to offer my opinion, being transgendered, I think I have a right to do that! :D
I actually half-expected when I read the transexual page that it would say these people have to keep their organs as they were created, ambiguous/deformed confusion that they are. I was surprised to see that these people are given the choice (you can't argue what you see between someone's legs) because their difference is undeniable and can't be excused as a mental problem.
It seems sort of silly to say that these cases are soley about what a person has or doesn't have between their legs ... that this is the basic factor which gives them a right to choose. That if you don't have this deformity, but you do have the obvious SAME THOUGHT PATTERN AND MENTAL STATE ... that that isn't relevant and it's just too bad ...
All decisions are based on what's found between their legs or can be prooven by science so far ...
But in these cases, CAN they be baptised? Because I'm not quite sure after reading this:
"What is the Christian position? Can a baptised Christian who has Transsexual feelings (sometimes called Gender Identity Disorder by the medical profession) seek Gender Reassignment? Can one who has had it and wishes to become one of Jehovah’s Witnesses, be baptised in the reassigned gender? (Can a person, for example, who was born and registered as a man but now lives after surgery completely as a woman, be baptised and function in the Congregation as a woman?)
So far as I understand the position, the answer to the questions in the previous paragraph is No."
Is the answer still no under those certain physical circumstances?
Which now leads me to this question which is entirely hypothetical, but if at some point science finds a visible and definate physical basis inside the BRAIN or DNA or whatever ... some sort of genetic deformity that can not be changed, that is not immediately visible to one's eye such as with hermaphrodites, but is an undeniable abnormality/difference, would one be allowed to make a conscientious decision with a doctor for surgerical correction?
Also from another of your pages it says:
"Reasoning From The Scriptures, page 369/370
True Christians know that even deeply rooted wrong desires, including those that may have a genetic basis or that involve physical causes or environmental factors, are not insurmountable for persons who truly want to please Jehovah."
If you have a genetic or physical abnormality ... in some instances how do you know if your desires are wrong? I mean if you have both sexes, how do you know which of the opposite sex you SHOULD be attracted to?
I'm not trying to stir anything up, these are valid and sincere questions and thoughts ...
In the past couple years I've actually considered going to a specialist and getting tested in every way possible. If I did have some condition such as Klinefelter’s Syndrome, or an ultrasound found a pair of non-function ovaries (a condition a friend I have talked to had) I am curious as to what sort of options I have to stay a witness ... And if it were found I don't have any of these conditions, my opinion still remains that gender is far more than what you're born with between your legs ...
If you take a straight man and remove his genitals, he's still a straight man mentally ... even though physically he is no longer a man in the obvious regards.
I still feel like a straight woman who was given genitals I do not want!
Wednesday, December 17th 2003 - 01:08:04 AM
Name: Brett Comments: Hi Phil. First thanks for the reply. :) I was hoping someone would reply to my post!
You said:
"P.S. Ask your elders which of them, or any in their families, are on anti-depressants. Then tell them to come off them at once, that depression is unnatural and perverted and that a Christian should experience joy, and should not need drugs to do so. Tell them that you will stop having transsexual feelings, when they or their families stop having clinical depression feelings............."
This prooves such a great point!
The impression I get is that if I gave the time I'd normally give a mate to spreading and sharing the truth, praying, and studying ... then I'd be content and happy and distracted from my perverse/depressed feelings. Well that works to a point but it's not a cure-all. Sooner or later my heart reminds me of what I DO NOT and WILL NOT ever have. Being an excellent witness does not mend an aching and lonely heart. Sure you feel closer to Jehovah and you feel a sense of pride and accomplishment, but the heart still hurts. I've been praying intensely for a couple years for the shame and ache and lonliness to go away. When it doesn't, you want to give up ... and sometimes you need other gay brothers and sisters to give you a kick in the seat and get you back into it.
The witnesses where I live, while I'm sure not intentionally, have slowly pulled back from me. I find it very difficult to make friends with other brothers anyway, part of it is them and part of it is me telling myself I don't deserve friends and that if I did have them I'd develop inappropriate feelings for them.
Telling the sick or weak people to throw themselves into more work which builds stronger faith in Jehovah and a closer relationship with Him doesn't always work as a total cure for their lack in faith or their illness. I mean it's helped me some, but I can't help but hold some resentment and jealousy and anger for the pain that comes with it. I'm trying so hard though to rid myself of those feelings!
I jokingly said to a fellow gay brother that I am studying with online that what they are asking me to do it mentally castrate myself so that physically I'd no longer crave intimacy or sex. But as long as my body in that area is in working order, it's not so easy to ignore it and I dare them to try it for themselves.
The good news is I've ended a 4 month internet relationship with a non-witness but spiritual (ha listen to me defend my poor choices) guy that I had DEEP feelings for. Every day my heart aches and I miss him terribly but I brought my own misery on myself because I knew it was wrong and that the ending of it was inevitible, yet I persued it because I felt loved and held a deep love in return. I was hoping some how I could bring him to the truth, and keep him as a boyfriend. I was fooling myself.
So I felt I should talk about and confess my immoral relationship with this guy online, but I'd rather die than face the brothers at my Hall. Instead I confided in some gay brothers I've met online ... and they encouraged me and made me see my error more clearly.
My gay brothers I chat with are not perfect, but we've built a small support group for eachother and we encourage eachother to live in the truth and not seek out anything that would displease Jehovah. And I know there's times we fall short but I don't feel I can really go to the brothers at my Hall because they don't understand.
I sincerely wish for the Governing Body to reach out a sympathetic and understanding and loving heart to the brothers like us and let us know we're still loved and that there are places like THIS on the internet for us. Not as a dating service, but to talk to other people who understand us.
They have AA for alcholics, but we have nothing but straight and like it or not, sometimes biased and judgemental brothers to go to ... so we don't.
In fact, I know one brother from online who DID go to his brothers and their lack of knowledge, compassion, understanding, or care made them dismiss him as if he had all the answers already and shouldn't bother them with such matters.
Do they realize that when we go to Jehovah we aren't always patient for help or we don't see it when it's being provided? And it takes UNBELIEVABLE courage to come to them! They're our brothers! They're supposed to WANT to help us! When you feel rejected it's sometimes hard not to go somewhere else for help ... which isn't always the best place to look!
I have so badly wanted more answers and help from the materials we have ... and recently there has been more which I attribute to the news and television shows that have come about the last couple years. I want them to keep brothers like me from falling away ... and personally, dare I say this, I feel they're failing us in some regards.
This group/website and brothers like the 2 I know online have kept me from making HORRIBLE decisions. I was weak and hearing what I wanted to hear ... not what I needed to hear.
Love,
Brett
Monday, December 15th 2003 - 11:18:14 AM
Name: Sunny Comments: Hi together,
last weekend we've startet to remodel our Kingdomhall inside. We painted every wall with new white color. The hall itself will get a nice very light green touch. New watertaps are already installed. In February we will go on to do the new carpet and curtains. It's nice to work in Jehovahs house and make it nice and new again! It helps to forget in wich situation as gay's we living. That is very important for me, since I've got more and more depressions again.
If anyone would like to write me, don't hesitate!
Take care!
Sunny
Saturday, December 13th 2003 - 02:44:35 AM
Name: Phil Homepage URL: http://www.witnesses.plus.com Comments: Dear Brett,
Thank you for signing the guestbook. I am so sorry that you are having such a difficult time. Your comments about how you havre been treated are balanced, but I sense your anguish.
Sometimes it is difficult for elders to know what to advise on a given subject, as it maybe something they have little knowledge of. In such situations, the tendency can be to 'shoot the mouth off' without first going off to GAIN some knowledge.
I was very heartened by a picture in a recent WT study article. (I will check which issue shortly, and post it here). It showed two elders sitting talking to a brother of mature years (possibly also an elder) and the mature brother not looking happy at all. Then it showed one of the elders engaged in prayerful study, then a third photo showing another meeting, in which the whole meeting looked happy and productive.
Obviously, the elders had at first presumed to comment on a situation they knew much less about than the individual they were counseling. How presumptouos. Perhaps it was a family question, a matter of employment, or sickness, or whatever, but likely the mature broather had thought about it very extensively, and would be irked by an elder parading his ignornance at first. But then one of them made a point of reasding up on the subject, and was THEN able to hold a useful discussion.
Years ago, Brett, I knew nothing at all of the matter of transsexuality. But then a young man with whom I had studied, and who was baptised, turned out to have transsexual feelings. So I made it my business to find out as much as I could. In fact, he was the very first person I ever 'came out' to about my own homosexual orientation.
In time, I wrote to the Society, and received quite a long reply, a little of which is quoted on the transsexual page here.
This year in a conversation with a Circuit Overseer friend, he told me of a brother he knows from his former circuit, who had had gender re-assignement, and reversed it to come into the Truth. Perhaps in time I wil be able to talk to that person. It was a brave and difficult thing to do.
I understand and sympathise very much with your comment respecting married elders who easily advocate celibacy!
I recall one or two particularly stupid comments from one elder along those lines respecting the transsexual young man I studied with, That elder left the truth.
You have had no 'dirty little secret'. Even if you had a secret, it wasn't dirty. We live in a time when attitudes are changing - slowly maybe, but changing just the same.
Years ago, probably a woman with Post-Partum Depression would have been ashamed to admit it, and it would have been a 'dirty little secret'. Now, happily, the scale of the problem is recognised, and mothers in that situation can get help. The Awake artcle on the topic this year gave as number one tip on coping "Talk to other mothers". So the need for support from those in a similar situation is recognised by the WT society.
You could even use inflammatory language, and call feelings of Post-Partum depresssion Shameful, Unnatural, and Perverted. Strictly speaking, such a description would be semantically correct. But not very helpful to those in the situation!
Perhaps "we" suffer from such labeling and vocabulary, but perhaps this is improving with time.
Brett, please please feel that you have support here. If you would like to email me privately, I will be able to share a little more of the society's letter to me on transsexuality, and also to listen to and discuss any other thoughts you have. You can also post again to the guestbook, of course.
Can I say finally, how well you express yourself.
Warm wishes,
Phil.
P.S. Ask your elders which of them, or any in their families, are on anti-depressants. Then tell them to come off them at once, that depression is unnatural and perverted and that a Christian should experience joy, and should not need drugs to do so. Tell them that you will stop having transsexual feelings, when they or their families stop having clinical depression feelings.............
Friday, December 12th 2003 - 08:03:13 PM
Name: Brett Comments: My name is Brett and I am almost 17, and a gay/transgendered JW.
I have always FELT female despite the body I inhabited. I just had this feeling of, "No ... I'm not supposed to be male."
I identify as female (in my heart and soul) so my sexuality fits accordingly. I am attracted to men.
A lot of transgendered people's bodies betray them at puberty ... that's when our bodies tell us, "Like it or not, this is what you're going to be."
Luckily my body has not done that. I am 5'2 and 100 lbs and very small boned. I lack all masculine physical characteristics besides the obvious one which makes me male.
I lack body hair, and my voice hasn't changed. Lots of people attribute this to being a late bloomer, but I believe there may be more to it than that.
Regardless of my personal feelings and my physical appearance, things I can not change, I dress in typical male clothing and keep my hair cut short. I do have some feminine mannerisms, which I have tried to correct but sometimes continue to do unconsciously.
There have been at least 3 or 4 times I've actually been called a 'lesbo' or 'dyke' by people who assumed I was a female adopting a male identity. When telling them, I was indeed a male, something I DID NOT want to admit, I was then called a 'faggot' or 'homo'.
The reason I'm writing this is because recently I was approached by a brother at the hall who said that he and a few other brothers thought that after it being brought to their attention recently, maybe I was in need of a positive male spiritual influence/role model/ and guidance so that I wouldn't make poor decisions and start off on the wrong foot, or committing grave sins or loose conduct. Etc. so on and so forth.
Long story short they called me out on my androgeny which is not completely my fault. I can not change my voice or body or face ... (or sexuality) ... I will admit that I can make a concious effort to change my feminine mannerisms, which I have been working on eliminating.
They made me feel second class, I did not feel any understanding or compassion, basically it was more like a scolding. "WE DO NOT LIKE WHO AND WHAT YOU ARE CHANGE OR ELSE." was the message I heard. I've tried to tell myself they were coming to me to help me, but I do not feel they have done so. All that happened was they let me know they were now aware of something I am ashamed of and I've been trying my best to overcome and ignore and repress.
The Kingdom Hall was one place I had never been called a sissy or fag or momma's boy or whimp ... and it literally crushed me to have them come to me in such a manner, and to know that despite their promises of keeping it private ... the whole congregation now knows I was talked to regarding my behavior.
I have lost my voice there. I do not look people in the eye or smile or raise my hand to offer any more. I realize they are just people and imperfect like me and their intentions were good, but my pride has been hurt and I realize I need to work on putting that aside and to become active again.
In a lot of ways this was no dirty little secret, people are aware of how I am. I just wish they'd not point out my flaws. I am more aware of them than they are ... believe me.
I have a lot of stress an anxiety over what my future holds. I do not see myself ever knowing love beyond that of a friend, son, grandson, fellow brother. For whatever reasons, they may be genetic or mental or Satan's influence somewhere in my life that I can't pinpoint, I have realized at a young age my future holds no soul mate or companion in life to experience the simple joy of intimacy, let alone a sexual relationship.
And for any straight married elder to say that sex is not everything, and it's unimportant, does not necessarily fly with me.
I challenge a married brother to go 3 or 4 months with NO sexual outlet or intimacy in ANY regard. Then they might possibly realize just how difficult it is for us because we have years and years to face ... not just a few months.
That realization sinking in has given me very little to look forward to in regards to a relationship, and that seems to be the only thing on my mind now. This may be due to my age, but I know that my heart will only ache more and more as I watch my friends and family marry and have families ...
Basically I just wanted to get in touch with others who know what I feel and can relate to me. I hope to hear from you.
Thinking of you all,
Brett
Sunday, December 7th 2003 - 10:51:49 PM
Name: Kurt Comments: Hey Phil!!! Your site is doing very well, I see. Even though there has been a mass exodus to CosmoVoice, it's nice to have multiple sites to discuss things with friends. It's nice to see new friends coming in to state their feelings and find encouragement from others, esp from you. Thanks for not bringing down your site! :-)
Love ya
Thursday, December 4th 2003 - 03:52:29 AM
Name: Phil Homepage URL: http://www.witnesses.plus.com Comments: Dear Joshua,
Thank you for signing the guestbook. I am glad that you have found the expressions encouraging, and I hope that others will write to you.
As to feeling inferior, well, let me tell you that in one area at least - the use of language - you have decidedly superior powers.
And I think, you know, that most people feel inferior, at certain times and in certain ways, anyway. It is a human psychological trait, to feel insecure and to imagine that no-one else does.
Friends are important aren't they. It's good to have friends of both sexes and different ages, within the Christian Congregation. But it is important to know that others share our feelings on specific matters, and that is where sites like this have some value, I feel.
In the Awake! article on Post-Partum Depression a few months ago, the number one tip for coping, was to talk to other mothers. The importance of shared experience is thus recognised.
Joshua, I am sure we all look for ward to knowing you a litle better, and to helping in any way that we can.
Hugs,
Phil.
Wednesday, December 3rd 2003 - 04:36:54 PM
Name: Joshua Comments: I am a 22-year-old brother in the United States, and would just like to thank everyone for their encouragement, insights, etc. I have been dealing with depression since I was about sixteen, which I have attributed to various factors, not the least of which being that I have had such feelings as expressed here. Also, I have endured a childhood under a restrictive and psychologically opressive father, and either as a result of or in spite of this fact, I have always felt out of place among other kids my age and have grown to feel more and more inferior to other people. I'm starting to think, though, that the way I am is somewhat inherent in my personality. I am in real need of a friend around my age who can sympathize with my circumstances.
Your friend and brother,
Joshua ("Jehovah is salvation")
Friday, November 28th 2003 - 02:03:02 PM
Name: TONY Comments: I JUST WANTED TO SAY HELLO TO EVERYONE AND THAT I AM GLAD TO HAVE A PLACE THAT I SEEMINGLY AM ABLE TO BE MYSELF. YOU KNOW IT IS TRUELY HARD TO BE THE WAY THAT I AM, AN STILL REMAIN A WITNESS. BUT YOU KNOW IN ALL THE YEARS THAT I HAVE TRIED MY BEST AND PUT MY BEST FOOT FOWARD, I KNOW THAT FOR A FACT THAT JEHOVAH DOES BLESS THOSE THAT ARE NEEDING OF IT AND THOSE WHO ASK FOR IT, BUT ALSO TOO HE BLESSES THOSE WHO DO EVEN KNOW THAT THEY NEED IT AND HE WILL ALWAYS HELP THOSE ONES THAT ARE TRYING THERE BEST TO DO WHAT IS RIGHT IN HIS EYES, EVEN IF YOU DONT THINK THAT YOU ARE DOING WHAT IS RIGHT. HE WILL BLESS YOU AND HELP YOU AS MUCH AS HE CAN, BECAUSE HE IS THAT OF A LOVING GOD AND A NUTURING ONE AT THAT. WITHOUT JEHOVAH IN MY LIFE, I DONT KNOW WHERE I WOULD BE TODAY. I DO KNOW THAT I WOULD PROBABLY BE IN A BAD SITUATION, KNOWING ME. SO I PRAISE HIM AS MUCH AND AS OFTEN AS I CAN. TALKIN TO JEHOVAH IS SOMETHING THAT NOT EVERYONE CAN DO, BECAUSE THEY DONT KNOW HIM, BUT WE DO HAVE THE PRIVILEDGE OF KNOWING HIM AND GETTING TO KNOW HIM EVEN BETTER. SO WE MUST NOT TAKE THAT FOR GRANTED, WE NEED TO HOLD ON TO HIM AND HIS LIFE LINE THAT HE HAS GIVEN US AND HOLD ON TIGHT, AS TIGHT AS WE POSSIBLE CAN, AND THEN ASK JEHOVAH TO HOLD ON TO US AS WELL, BECAUSE TIMES ARE BECOMING MORE AND MORE HARDER, AND WITHOUT HIM, WE GO NO WHERE, BUT TO DEATH, THE ONE PLACE THAT HE DOESNT WANT ANY OF US TO GO. IN REGUARDS TO THE BROTHER WHO IS HAVING PROBLEMS GOING TO MEETINGS BECAUSE HE DOENST FEEL THAT HE IS READY, YOU NEED TO TRY AND REALIZE THAT IN THIS WORLD YOU WILL NEVER BE READY TO BE A WITNESS, THAT IS WHY THE TIME IS NOW FOR YOU TO TRY AND DO YOUR UTMOST, AND AND SHOW YOUR LOVE FOR JEHOVAH AND REMEMBER THAT HE WILL NEVER GIVE YOU ANYTHING THAT YOU CAN NOT BARE FOR YOURSELF. HE LOVES YOU AND WE ALL LOVE YOU AS WELL, I HOPE AND I PRAY THAT THINGS GET BETTER FOR YOU AND THAT YOU ARE ABLE TO FIND YOUR WAY THROUGH SO YOU CAN SERVE JEHOVAH WITH YOUR WHOLE HEART, SOUL, AND MIND. MUCH LOVE FROM YOUR BROTHER IN CALIFORNIA. U.S.A.
Wednesday, November 26th 2003 - 10:02:20 AM
Name: Akis Comments: Hi ya bri and phil!
Thanks 4 ur posts :)
seems like everyone s on d new site...
www.cosmopolitanvoice.org/
luv to all
Akis
Thursday, November 20th 2003 - 08:09:20 AM
Name: Phil Comments: Akis, please consider yourself hugged! I hope things are going well for you.
Phil.
Saturday, November 15th 2003 - 06:18:05 PM
Name: bri Comments: Akis
I just wanted to mentiion how I found your experience truly encouraging. Reading things like that helps me to keep going as I imagine it does for many others. Your humility and your honesty shows that we are all in the right place, all together under Jah`s protective "wing", and he doesn``t want us to leave his organization becoming devoured by the merciless,selfish, superficial, sick world we live in
Thank you so much
Thursday, November 13th 2003 - 06:33:15 AM
Name: Phil Homepage URL: http://www.witnesses.plus.com Comments: John, please don't apologise for 'taking up space'! why, this is just what the guestbook is for!
I, and I am sure many others, appreciate the candour of your expression. Please know that you have much sympathy.
I don't think any of us here are among those who fall into the 'everything in the garden is rosy' trap. The trap of pretending that everything is OK, because we think, and imagine that others think, that it ought to be OK, and we are unwilling, and imagine that others are unwilling, to openly face things NOT being OK.
Does that make sense? Or is it entirely too orotund an expression??
Prayer can take different forms, both formal and impromptu.
When you associate again, John, you will be giving your brothers and sisters the chance to love you - and they will love you even more in weakness than in strength.
Chin up, best foot forward, and "Humble yourself under the mighty hand of God, that he may exalt you in due time" 1Peter5:6
No-one can exalt us quicker or higher than the Creator, and he will do it, if we are humble, because the next verse tell us "throw all your anxiety in him, because he cares for you".
Good wishes,
Phil.
Wednesday, November 12th 2003 - 08:51:35 PM
Name: John Comments: Hi. I just want to thank those of you who took your time to email me. Especially to Marc. I know we had a very long conversation yet i still feel, not ready. I dont know maybe I have lived a gay life style for a long time i still pray on it, or maybe im just to plain scared of commiting my self and failing even i know i wouldnt because i have a very strong will once i put my mind into what i do. But i am human and i guess its expected to fail more than once. I havent really tired to go to a meeting. I just dont feel ready. I dont know what is wrong with me. Last night i had a dream that i was going to hell and i woke up crying asking Jehovah to please forgive me for the life im living. In everything i do i ask him to somehow give me a sign if its something that i should or shouldnt think about. I dont exactly pray to him i Talk to him. i feel better when i just look up into the sky and just talk to him like if i where talking to a friend. Im sorry if im using up your space here on your web page (owner). I just feel deep inside that im going to know when the time comes, That its time to go back to him to Jehovah. Im just very afraid that it will be too late, like when something bad happens to me. But he knows that i still talk to him in goo or bad. It hasnt changed. Even though i havent see a happy day in my life. No. IM not putting my self in a victim position. i dont consider my self a victim. well to all you kind people im out. have a Great day and may Jehovah keep smiling down on you. And may his kingdom come soon.
Monday, November 10th 2003 - 01:43:35 PM
Name: Chrystal Comments: Hello. I'm in the process of moving and have been going through all my stuff. I have a book and a couple of audio tapes on the subject of reparative therapy for homosexuals. (Well it's not exactly that topic but similar.) I'd like to give it away if someone is genuinely interested in the topic. Just email me privately with any further questions (chcjcamo@hotmail.com).
Thursday, November 6th 2003 - 02:19:51 PM
Name: Akis Comments: Hi there my dearest bros and sis!
I just decided to post coz i felt it wasnt right for me just to read ur sincere posts. We re all in need of eachother!!
I'm a bro, nearly 22 from southern europe and currently serving in full time service. First time i spoke out about my situation was when i was pioneering at 16. I spoke to my CO coz he showed a lot of trust in me...and it was his last visit...hehe. I wanted to know how ppl in Jah s org whom i looked up to, react to such a situation and most of all i wasnt sure if Jah accepted my service despite my situation, so I needed an answer. I hate escaping reality and i wanted to know where i stand. The sooner d better. Anyway, i was really glad when the CO was ok with it. He didnt make a fuss of it at all. He even promised to pray for me coz i 'had a real tough fight.' That was a good boost. He even told me that he knows bros in his position who experience the same thing. I was glad that d only person I spoke to gave me reassurance. Then 2 years ago, after i moved to another field of full time service, I had to speak to d country committee of where i serve, again coz i needed answers. It was really tough. Several meetings were immediately organised and i had to go through all d pain of relating my life and emotions, to try and make these bros feel a glimpse of d turmoil we go through, to help them think about what it means not being able to hug that special person, and to confine d most powerful love inside our weak bodies. I did this in d most sincere way i could, my future was pending. I was crying, like a small child who feels insecure and wants to fight back his new emotions. Tears fell from d eyes of everyone of them. Its strange to c such bros crying. They saw me growing up and it was a shock for them to face this reality i had disclosed from everyone in all my life. But they all hugged me and promised nothing will ever change, that they will always b there. And so they did. After doing more consultation they decided i was permitted to continue my service. It was really tough but i was so pleased and relaxed!
Now Im still fighting like all of u. I get crushes on my friends and being always disappointed, i need hugs and reassurance which i never find, etc etc. I dont need to make a list :) But I try to have a positive attitude. Something that keeps me going is knowing jah is strong enough to give me d strength i need to keep smiling despite everything. I believe i could b in a much worse position... like having to b dependant of other ppl to care for me, wash me, feed me etc. At least, although a bhf (bro with homosexual feelings),Im independant, I can make choices and explore so many other aspects of life and enjoy d benefits of serving Jah!
I always pray to Jah that if he wants me to serve him, I need his strength, its too difficult on my own, and so far he never disappointed me. Please never give up, we are fighters. We can get positive and negative feedback from ppl in trying to feel wanted, accepted, and understood but we would still have to face ourselves everyday, and really, despite what feedback we get, we need no other answer than knowing Jehovah is with us and he s giving us his right hand to help us make it through!
Thanks everyone for being there! We need eachother 4 this little time left and i think that it would really b encouraging for all of u out there just to say even 'hi.' Knowing ur there means a lot! ( I got freedom of speech now ;) )
Luv u all!
Take care,
Akis
Monday, November 3rd 2003 - 05:52:19 PM
Name: theresa Comments: The other day I had an interesting discussion with a young man who had contacted me through this website. He was surprised I was a female. And commented that Sisters are more accepted as singles in Jehovah's Organization. There is no pressure to marry. He also went on to mention whether I would consider marrying a gay man for companionship. I read his opinion without anger, even though I knew he was way off basis; at least in my circumstance.
The point of my email. I would like some feedback on what others feel about this topic. I have noticed that there are a lot more Males at this website as well as James'. Either us Sisters are coping very well or are just hanging out on the sidelines to see what is being said. I know I read the website and the other for eight months before deciding to sign the guest book.
Theresa
Monday, November 3rd 2003 - 09:42:10 AM
Name: alex (1) Comments: Last week end I had to hear two more evidences of how uninformed and biased brothers and sisters' opinion is concerning this problem. While on service with a pioneer sister, she said how bad this current world really is, a sure proof of the coming end, with so many out homosexuals who act openly and how bad it can be for all these young ones who will eventually be 'influenced' by them ! And then, the next day, my father gave the talk at our hall and insisted on the responsibility of religions in encouraging homosexual behaviour, which is just unacceptable and the worse thing of all (or something like that, I actually stopped listening carefully from that moment). This is only to show how difficult it will be to help the congregations understand and accept the difference between feeling and acting. No one here (southern europe) never seems to imagine that it might be a possibility for somebody to feel this way, it's something that has never crossed their mind, and they would have to hear Jesus himself acknoledge it to start giving it some consideration...
But anyway, it will be interesting to observe how the situation develops in the future, if things are being made clearer in the printed material we get from the governing body. I think many will find it hard to accept the change, and will be the 21st century prejudiced conservative jews that will reject the "impure gentile" forever. Wait and see !
Wednesday, October 29th 2003 - 02:56:59 AM
Name: Phil Homepage URL: http://www.witnesses.plus.com Comments: Hi people,
Ezra, nice to hear from you again, and I'm glad to hear that you seem to be in good spirits!
Tony, welcome! It's great to hear from you. I'm sure you will make some good friends from here, and get some good responses to any thoughts you care to post. You know what? This idea that we 'choose' to feel same-sex attraction is so odd isn't it. The brothers that think it (and I have recently heard a similar expression in my own congregation) have not thought it through at all, and are over thirty years out of date in their spiritual reading.
Yes, there was a WT in, I think, 1970, that spoke about CHOOSING a gay lifestyle, and it didnt clearly make the distinction between orientation and practice. But we have come a long long way since then. So maybe we should all say, when we hear such comments "Oh brother, oh sister, you need to catch up with your reading schedule, you're thirty years behind!"
In this connection, I've tired to make the "What the literature says" page as helpful as possible. If printed out, it could conceiveably be shown to any elder who goes by culture instead of Scripture, with the cry "HERE is what the publications say. I am interested in THIS, not in your personal cultural prejudices!", or words to that effect. (I write this rather jokingly, as you realise, but our utterance must be "always gracious, seasoned with salt".
Joking apart, thought, I am afraid that not all elders are equally good. Mine have been great, I have to say. But sadly, we do hear of many cases where elders go by culture not Scripture. I think maybe they need more training in this area. What do others think?
Anyway, Tony, good to meet you here, and keep posting!
Kind regards,
Phil.
Tuesday, October 28th 2003 - 08:47:27 PM
Name: Tony Comments: I JUST WANTED TO SAY HI TO EVERYONE FOR THE FIRST TIME. I HAVE BEEN BAPTIZED FOR 7 TO 8 YEARS, AND I AM QUITE ACTIVE. THAT IS A GOOD THING I THINK, :-D.
I RECENTLY WAS TOLD ABOUT THIS SIGHT, AND I READ JUST ABOUT ALL OF YOUR COMMENTS, AND I LIKE HOW EVERYONE IS ABLE TO SAY WHAT IS ON THERE MIND, AND STILL NOT BE LOOKED AT LIKE THEY ARE ODD, OR WIERD. THAT IS SOMETHING THAT HAS NEVER REALLY HAPPENED TO ME. IT IS HARD BEING A WITNESS AND BEING THE WAY THAT I AM. AT TIMES IT EVEN MAKES ME WANT TO CRY, AND YOU KNOW SOMETHING, IT TAKES A LOT TO MAKE ME CRY, BUT I WAS UNDER THEM IMPRESSION THAT THERE WAS NO ONE OUT THERE LIKE ME. WELL GUESS WHAT, I WAS WRONG. THE FIRST DAY I FOUND THIS SITE, I E-MAILED ONE OF THE BROTHERS HERE, AND SINCE THAT E-MAIL, WE HAVE BEEN ABLE TO COMMUNICATE, AND EVEN HAD A FEW CHATS ON THE PHONE. YOU KNOW WITH OUT SOMEONES SUPPORT, IT IS SO VERY HARD TO REMAIN A WITNESS, ESPECIALLY IF YOU ARE NOT KNOWN TO ANYONE. THAT IS PROBABLY ONE OF THE HARDESTING THINGS. I GO TO SCHOOL AND I HEAR WORLDLY PEOPLE SAY HOW THEY HATE FAGS, AND THEY SHOULD ALL DIE, AND THEN I HEAR FROM BROTHERS AND SISTERS THAT, OH MY GOODNESS WHAT A FILTHY THING FOR SOMEONE TO CHOICE, AND YOU KNOW, LAST TIME I CHECKED, I DIDNT CHOSE THIS WAY OF LIFE, I DIDNT EVEN ASK FOR IT, AND NOW PEOPLE DONT EVEN LIKE YOU BECAUSE OF WHAT YOU ARE. THAT IS PROBABLY ONE OF THE HARDEST THINGS THAT I HAVE EVER EXPERIENCED. BUT NOW, I MET SOMEONE, AND I HAVE FOUND OUT THAT JEHOVAH DOES PROVIDE HELP FOR THOSE OF US THAT ARE LOOKING FOR IT, AND THAT HE WANTS EVERYONE OF US TO REMAIN CLOSE TO HIM, AND STRONG WITH HIS HOLY SPIRIT, AND YOU KNOW, I SEEM TO HAVE FOUND A NEW LIGHT BY SEEING THIS SITE. IT IS VERY ENCOURAGING, AND UPLIFTING. I SEE THAT YOU HAVE SOME PRETTY INTERETSING TOPICS OTHER THEN HOMOSEXUALITY. THAT IS NICE TO.
BUT TO THE ONE PERSON THAT I HAVE MET, YOU KNOW WHO YOU ARE, THANK YOU SO VERY MUCH, AND I THANK JEHOVAH FOR ALLOWING US TO MEET. WITHOUT YOU, AND THE OTHER BROTHERS AND SISTERS FROM THIS SITE, I DONT KNOW WHAT I WOULD SAY OR DO.
ONE THING THAT I DO KNOW IS THAT I AM PLANNING A TRIP NOW TO SCOTLAND. :-D GLASGOW TO BE PARTICULAR.
THANK YOU ALL SO MUCH MY FELLOW BROTHERS AND SISTERS, THIS IS WHY WE ARE HERE. YOUR NEW FRIEND, TONY. :-D
Sunday, October 26th 2003 - 11:31:13 AM
Name: David Comments: Hi Sunny,
That's great about your Kingdom Hall. I know what you mean about working on such projects being encouraging.
I think we need times together like that to build us up. In most of Europe and USA these days we don't get much joy from conducing many Bible studies and seeing them making good progress, so it's good when we have other times to gether and ways of associating to help us keep our spirits up.
Best,
David.
Sunday, October 26th 2003 - 09:49:11 AM
Name: Sunny Comments: Roof finished!
Hi to everybody,
yesterday we finaly finished the new roof at our Kingdomhall! Was very nice to see how friendly, nice, and kind all the brothers and sisters worked together. We finished at 10.10 pm. That was really late. After a late dinner I came home arround 11.30 pm. But I was happy, because I know for who I worked so long and hard. (I've started from 6.45 am)
Now we waiting for to remodel inside. We should get a new carpet, new paintings, curtans, and new watertaps.
Can't wait for that, cause it helps a bit to get in a better mood and helps to get rid of bad feelings, like loneliness, and depressions...
I wish a nice new week in this crazy old system...
Take care,
Sunny
Friday, October 24th 2003 - 09:27:44 PM
Name: Dustin Comments: Hey Sunny,
We've almost finished our rebuild of our kingdom hall. three months now. We tore almost the entire thing down and rebuilt it. It's looking soooo good. Parking lot is going in this weekend....and the main hall's chairs are still on backorder. :~( mid November the new chairs should be in and we'll be back to worshipping Jehovah in our own hall.
Take care all!
Friday, October 24th 2003 - 02:28:22 PM
Name: Sunny Comments: Hi there,
thank you guys for the nice postings. Just went home from the first day of the second remodeling weekend at our Kingdomhall. We get a new roof in the moment, and I manage the food and drinks for all the workers (30 last weekend, 20 this weekend). Today we had some nice cakes, later different salads, meat, cheese, and sausage. Tomorrow I have to get up early again, for preparing breakfast, coffee and tee. Later we will have pasta, different sauces, salad, and cakes´with coffee and tee. It hurts my back, but I will survive. I have really fun to help. I love to work for Jehovah's organisation. It's getting cold here (30°Farenheit)
-1° Celsius. So I hope tomorrow everything is going ok. We have to burn (heat up) first parts of the roof, for walk on it safely. A lot to do!
I wish everybody a nice weekend.
Never stop to fight!
For the truth!
Sunny
Friday, October 24th 2003 - 06:39:55 AM
Name: Marc Comments: Hey "Sunny",
It was nice chatting with you on the phone the other day. can you believe it has been 4 years since we met? I really hope your back feels better soon. Pain is something that we certainly won't miss in the new system. It's going to be all right, just hang on. Philia.
Friday, October 24th 2003 - 05:00:40 AM
Name: David Comments: Hi folks,
Sunny, like you, I believe my 'gayness' is intrinsic, from the womb (not necessarily genetic. I had a happy childhood untrammeled by any kind of abuse. Nothing was ever done to me to 'make' me gay.
I am still wating to find any example of any person who really chnaged, giving full details of how this was achieved. There are no such persons, it seems to me.
Theresa, some changes in the new system, will be by miraculous provision. A person with a missing leg in this system cannot get a real new one, no matter how hard they try. But in the new system, they will, by miracle. Similarly, internal or emotional difficulties which cannot be corrected in this system, will be fixed in the new system. No?
Best wishes,
David.
Thursday, October 23rd 2003 - 07:19:32 PM
Name: theresa Comments: If the source of this pain staking imperfection is gentic.
I am not sure i have the energy to bring this into a new demention called the New World order. I am sure there are a lot of things that need to be taken care of first. Remember imperfection does not disappear in the new system.
If i can move to not be this way in the new system why cant
i do it in the here and now? if i sound angry i am not at anyone but myself. just thoughts on a page.
Thursday, October 23rd 2003 - 02:16:44 PM
Name: Sunny Comments: Hi all,
I agree with the four points of david's posting. I think there is no chance for a "real" change of sexual orientation. Thousands of people tried everything in the past. But the results are always the same. I'm wondering what the brothers will write in a future article about this thing.
Everybody who I've talked about this, knowed there sexual orientation since there was very, very young.
I wish everybody the power to go on in this world, with our problems. For the truth...
All the best
Sunny
Saturday, October 18th 2003 - 11:34:08 AM
Name: Phil Comments: Going Straight
Here is a URL for an article in The Telegraph newspaper of London, England, covering the recently published study by Dr. Spitzer.
Phil.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2003/10/12/wgay12.xml
Saturday, October 18th 2003 - 07:11:01 AM
Name: David Comments: What Should Future Articles Say?
Hi all,
What do you think the society should say in future articles on our topic?
From time to time some of us have commented on expressions that we felt weren't helpful or didn't represent the real state of affairs.
I think it would be very interesting if we all commented on what 'slant' we feel should be taken. If we all say the same thing, then it would show where the need is. And if we all say completely different things, well then I guess that's show that it's such a complex issue.
For a start:
1) I'd like to see MUCH greater emphasis on that fact that many young ones grow up in the truth, and are celibate, yet undoubtedly gay. It's not something they 'learned' in a previous worldy life in the system.
2) It'd be good to see a "Middle-aged People Ask" style article, acknowledging the dificulty of keeping one's chastity while all around are losing theirs (in marriage). i.e., a discussion of how sexual desire and the desire for companionship do not wane with maturity.
3) I would like to see an absolutely in-depth description of the processes that happened to any person who changed orientation, if there is such a person. I don't believe there is, in which case:
4) It would be good if the society would research hard, to see if there is any good evidence that change of orientation (GENUINE change, not just marriage and pretending) is possible, and if no evidence is found, then to say so.
What do others think?
David.
Thursday, October 16th 2003 - 07:45:03 AM
Name: Phil Comments: Hello,
This is the URL for the online version of the article in yesterday's copy of The Independent newspaper:
http://news.independent.co.uk/world/science_medical/story.jsp?story=453529
It gives an interesting review of the more recent studies.
Phil.
Wednesday, October 15th 2003 - 08:40:23 AM
Name: Phil Comments: Article in The Independent of London, England
Hello folks. There is a very interesting article in the Review section of today's Independent newspaper (www.independent.co.uk) looking at various theories from recent years put forward to account for homosexual orientation.
Phil.
Saturday, October 11th 2003 - 10:44:34 AM
Name: Max Comments: Hello!
We had last Sunday a public talk about wedding and marriage.
Then we read 1. Corinthians 7:8-9.
I got really depressed, when I've read it, cause we are as gay's can't go to marry. But we have our feelings like everybody else... This drives me crazy...
What do you think about that?
Thanks for your answers!
Max
Friday, October 10th 2003 - 03:20:01 PM
Name: bri Comments: AMEN BROTHER
Be it wishful thinking or otherwise,I think it`s a good idea to keep an open mind on some that have seemed to change their orientation. This may be possible to a certain degree making one able to lead a relatively normal (in this system) family life with wife and 2.5834 children to boot.
The Oct 8 Awake article talks about how some "changed" on pg 15. To what extent it does not say, but maybe some were able to marry and have a "contented" life. Who knows.
There are many on the Reparative Therapy program that have seemed to experience change. We have seen a couple of articles in the past on how some have changed from the organization. Yes it does discourage me at times to read such for I have not been able to experience such change.
But all the power to those who seemingly are able to experience credible results.
What I`ve been wondering for a while with all of this discussion is, how many that have "homosexual feelings" have married and have gotten along decently. We will probably never hear from them, although most of us would think it to be impossible for ourselves as I do, there must be a few.
Just a few thoughts and reflections.
P.T.L.
Thursday, October 9th 2003 - 10:04:18 PM
Name: Scott Comments: Are there any brothers here in SE England? Feel free to email me. Scott, inactive, down......but not out
Thursday, October 9th 2003 - 10:20:53 AM
Name: Phil Comments: Hi folks.
Mat, you say with reference to my comments on 'techniques' to change sexual orientation "you cannot discount that they may work in others".
Actually, I do.
I have looked very hard for a single case of genuine change of orientation. I have searched online resources, and have examined books in bookshops. I have found not one case of genuine change of orientation.
And now this Dr. Spitzer is weighing in with his own study, saying that it can be done. However, although I have not read his paper, now published, I still doubt that he has one case of real change of orientation. Comments by professionals in the field who have looked at Spitzer's study strengthen my doubt.
I am so VERY open to learning of a single case of genuine change of sexuality. Please tell us about it, anyone, if you know of one. It would make SUCH a difference if there really IS a way to change.
I am defintely not talking here of therapy to help COPE with being homosexual in orientation - to lessen the impact of it in one's life. Such an idea is fine, for those who want it. But is it NOT the same at all as change of sexuality.
I am afraid that Spitzer's study will be discredited like the others. If not - if it is true - then this is wonderful news, for it means that we can really change. I will be first in line to apply for the therapy on the UKs Health Service.
But oh, folks, how TERRIBLE if people are being fooled. "Expectation deferred is making the heart sick"
What a cruel deception, and how good a way to make us throw in the towel, if we are told we can change by method X, when in reality, we cannot, but we try and try with method X, and continually fail, because method X is a hoax.
Best,
Phil.
Wednesday, October 8th 2003 - 11:04:43 PM
Name: Mat Comments: Phil, Phil, Phil...
I see you are on your soapbox again re. the efficacy of therapies to change sexual orientation! LOL! Even if you and I personally do not believe they are effective in OUR case, you cannot discount that they may work in others. That is a personal decision only they can make under prayerful consideration, after doing extensive research. If they are able to sublimate their homoerotic inclinations and live happily ever after with a wife and 2.5 kids, more power to them! You cannot dismiss their experience with therapy as "quackery" or view this as a mandate that we all must miraculously change or try the same methods they used! We are all urged to read the Bible daily, do other personal study, attend meetings, pray regularly and participate in the ministry. I will be the first one to admit that I need to work on a lot of those requirements, but I acknowledge that those things go a long way to keep sinful tendencies such as ours under control. Can I get an amen, brothers?
Mat
Monday, October 6th 2003 - 04:25:37 PM
Name: Phil Comments: QUICK! ALL CHANGE!
Have you seen the press coverage of the now published study by Professor Spitzer? He was the guy who in 1973 got the American Psychiatric Association to change the status of homoseuxal orientation from an illness.
The New York Times on May 9 2001 mentioned his study of 143 men and 57 women who had sought help to change their homoseuxal orientation. He said he found that 66% of the men and 44% of the women had achieved "good heterosexual functioning". The study was not published at that time, but now it is, in "Archives Of Sexual Behavior".
Spitzer says "In some of the subjects, the reports of change in sexual orientation were substantial, credible and believeable".
Well folks I must say that that sentence immediately prejudices me against his work, for it is a sloppy sentence and makes me feel that he is a sloppy thinker! It's a tautology, for "credible" of course means "believeable".
But what about this idea of change folks? I mean, this is no empty academic debate is it? If it IS possible to change desire, by some method, then we all MUST do it. It is surely not optional.
Well, the bottom line is, in my opinion, it is still all kidology. None of them have really changed desire, I believe, even though they may have married and produced a squillion children.
Interesting and cogent reservations about Spitzer's study have been expressed by John Bancroft, an eminent sexologist at Indiana university's kinsey Institute in Bloomington.
You can read his comments in the online version of The Independent newspaper (www.independent.co.uk) October 6.
Friday, October 3rd 2003 - 07:26:55 PM
Name: bri Comments: Bring out the champagne, the site is staying up!!!
D Someone sent me a big hug over the internet once and it really made me feel a whole lot better. So a BIG hug to you and everyone else.
It always makes me very happy to see others discovering the site and the hope it gives them as it has me. Welcome and a big hug to you all. Better not get too mushy here.
Take care and have a nice weekend everyone
Friday, October 3rd 2003 - 11:34:46 AM
Name: Phil Comments: To Be Continued.....
Thank you very much to all who have made expression respecting the gaywitness website, both here and to me in private. The comments you have made have been so helpful to me, and are so much appreciated. For those who wrote privately - one or two about to go on vacation - I will reply properly soon.
The gaywitness site will continue in the meantime.
Your comments have helped me to balance my thinking, and something one person said, reminded me of an incident reported by a friend of mine (A Circuit Overseer) who is a bit older than me. He related his memory of a big International Assembly in London in the 1960s. A large campground of tents had been set up as an accommodation provision, all laid out in 'streets' with Biblical names. Well, with all those people together, things happened. There were a couple of cases of fornication on the site during the Assembly week. My friend recalls Brother Knorr speaking with sadness and distaste about 'fornicaton on Isaiah Street'.
Did the Society thereafter decide that large assemblies were too risky and must be abandoned? No! The benefits outweigh the risks. (And of course there is Scriptural precedent for large assemblies). So, large assemblies (now called Conventions) go on, with all the concommitant risks.
I am aware of the timely warnings the Society has given about the Internet. Just the week after my own District Convention, at which these dangers were mentioned, there were cases in the national news in this country that fully illustrated the Society's point.
The Society has said that brothers ought not to develop websites attempting to further explain the Truth - we have enough literature and the Society's own website for that. They have also said that brothers should not put links to the WT website.
Well, there are no links at all on the gaywitness site (there is a mention of jwsupport, but no hyperlink).
And I have not, I think, sought to 'explain' the Society's teaching - simply to draw attention to it by means of the page of extracts.
As to bringing people into contact with one another, my own impressions, supported by your wonderful comments, are that for the moment, and in this form, the benefits far outweigh the risks.
I bear in mind too the recent Awake! article about Post-Partum Depression, in which the number one tip to help cope was given as to 'Talk to other mothers'. The need to share with others in a similar situation - and the help this brings - is recognised.
Respecting the Guestbook, I said a while ago that two factors would make me exclude a posting, and it might be worth repeating these:
1) Something about the posting itself strikes me as unsuitable
2) Something questionable is definitely known to me about the person posting, even though the content of the post/s seems unobjectionable.
I have in fact excluded postings on both those grounds. You will realise that the discernment and the decision both fall to me. From time to time, I may get it wrong, on either count. If you consider that I do, please let me know, rather than fume in silence. If, for example, someone appears in the guestbook saying good things, but you happen to definitely know that person and know that they are apostate (or they try cybersex with you, or whatever), please help everyone by emailing me.
I don't see that I can do much more to afford protection, but if you think of anything, please let me know.
Very many thanks to all.
'Phil'.
Friday, October 3rd 2003 - 10:55:08 AM
Name: Phil Homepage URL: http://www.witnesses.plus.com Comments: Heirarchy of sin?
Marc, you rise to heights of poesy! It is a pleasure to enjoy a piece of writing for its style as much as for its content. Thank you for gracing my guestbook.
Oliver, Marc rather takes the words from my mouth - and how elegantly he does it. Nonetheless, I will admit that I have in the past pondered exactly the question you raise. Especially when I read the WT comment that put adultery as a worse sin than fornication by unmarried persons, I wondered where homosexual fornication between unmarried persons might fit in.
In the end, when sin has taken place, it comes down to individual cases and the condition of the heart. In cases of adultery, for example, the circumstances, attitudes and factors involved may vary enormously.
I am sure we can think of scenarios and comparisons, in which one case of heterosexual fornication might be 'worse' than another case of homosexual fornication. When these things happen, it is the difficult task of elders to try and ascertain the heart attitudes and motives involved. Not easy! But whatever the elders think and decide, how thankful we can be to know that Jehovah reads hearts - and reads them right every time, and "has committed all the judging to the Son" (John 5:22).
Best,
Phil
Friday, October 3rd 2003 - 10:31:38 AM
Name: Phil Homepage URL: http://www.witnesses.plus.com Comments: FOR SETH
Seth, don't think I didn't notice your posting. I have been wanting to comment, but other issues have intervened.
You speak of the transsexual feelings you have had since an early age. This is a very difficult thing to cope with - I think worse than a 'simple' homosexual orientation.
There is very little reference in the publications to the difficulty of transsexuality - basically only two short references prior to the recent Awake! article, which went into no depth at all on the nature of this problem.
I have some experience of knowing a person with transsexual feelings. If you would like to write privately to me perhaps we caould talk in more detail. Or if you would prefer to air a discussion here, that would be fine. The Transsexual page on this site quotes briefly from a letter from the WT Society. I can tell you a little more about that letter if you wish.
Sadly, it seems that not everyone with a homoseuxual orientation is as understanding as might be supposed respecting those who are in confusion over gender. But it is an absolutely genuine difficulty, just like that of being 'heterosexually challenged', and those who suffer in this way are not in any way mentally impaired or mentally ill, just as we with a homosexual orientation are not.
And I am sure all of us here are fully sympathetic to your difficulty. Have you discussed it with anyone?
Best regards,
Phil.
Friday, October 3rd 2003 - 06:24:01 AM
Name: Marc Comments: I think rating sins according to how bad they are is a slippery slope. After a while a person may think in his mind that if he chooses sin 'A' over sin 'B' he is less guilty, which would sear his conscience. To view this subject logically, a person needs to realize 2 things:
A. Unrepentant gross sinners will be destroyed, which makes them all equal in the end. From this vantage point it makes no sense to separate them into groups. The soul that is sinning, it itself will die.
B. The damage brought about by various sins is NOT equal. In the case of child sexual abuse, there is a victim. Realizing the effect of that sin is far worse than that of two consenting adults, we condemn it out of our sense of justice. It is an affront to justice itself to victimize anyone, especially the innocent. That sin produces severe long term irreversible damage. While the sin involving two adults would be far less offensive to people and their sense of right and wrong.
Since we endeavor to have the mind of the Christ and ultimately Jehovah, it would be best to keep 'A' in mind. I don't see the benefit in focusing on the particulars of why which gross sin is worse. Remember that in the original language, sin means "falling short of the mark". So the important thing is to avoid sins that separate us from the love of God and hating what is bad, not debating over which dead sinner will have deserved it more. In death, especially the second death, all are equal.
My thoughts. Philia, Marc
Friday, October 3rd 2003 - 05:24:02 AM
Name: oliver Comments: hi phil,
thank you for correcting me. i think you are right. i only thought of the act itself. i didn't think about the people involved. and your example adultery/fornication is convincing. what do you think: is there a difference in the degree of wrong doing between heterosexual and homosexual fornication??? since i can think about it, i took it always the same.
oliver
Friday, October 3rd 2003 - 04:44:03 AM
Name: Phil Comments: Oliver, thank you for your interesting thoughts. And everyone, thank you so much for your encouragement!
Oliver, I do not agree with you that sex with children is no more wrong than sex outside marriage between consenting adults. Sex involving children is on quite a different order of magnitude of sin (and crime, in most or all countries). It involves exploitation - sometimes threat and coercion - of children by adults. Even between consenting adults, degree of sin differs - the Watchtower has in the past pointed out that adultery is a far worse sin than fornication between unmarried persons, because in adultery at least one innocent mate is involved.
Awake articles have pointed out the wicked and exploitative nature of paedophile activity - edven in cases where to some degree the child, in a state of confusion, experiences something that passes for some kind of enjoyment.
Thursday, October 2nd 2003 - 03:04:11 PM
Name: oliver Comments: hi greg,
i'm with you, if you say, there is a difference between homosexuality and paedophilia. but there is a common base: both is in jehovah's eyes wrong and abnormal. ok, for ourselves with gay feelings we feel different from people who abuse children or using animals for their sexual desires. sometimes we think, we are better than them. but please understand, that there is no difference in the grade of wrongness of the behaviour. (actually a heterosexually relationship without being married is the same.)
if both people get their feelings under control and do not act according their wishes, everything is ok. but if not: no difference! hopefully i could explain, what i mean.
to kurt: doubtlessly we can adopt the article to our own situation. sometimes it would be a real comfort, if some of us (grown up in the truth) are mentioned in articles like this. but how many of us are outing theirselves in this way?
no wonder, we are not mentioned!
again to phil: where do you think, can one of us utter thoughts like this? where can he discuss and where can he be corrected if necessary in this easy going way? again thank you for providing such a possibility.
love and the so badly needed hugs to all :))
oliver
Thursday, October 2nd 2003 - 12:56:43 PM
Name: Scott Comments: Hey all you amazing brothers,
As you know i found the site a few weeks ago and it has transformed my life, not just because i discovered bros who care about me that still blows my mind... but i sooo much enjoy having others to care about deeply... Its been so long!
I've had 2 days of reasonable happiness this week a world record for me! Even though i am in agony with coming flying off a jetbike at 60mph OUCH!!! I can hardly move he he it gives me an excuse to sit down and read your posts over again.
I was so isolated because it seemed that i was being punished by Jehovah by surrounding me with the most homophobic bros and sis in the world he he he. I can take it from people in the world...
I just wanted to say this though....
I know a lot of you seem to feel the article in the Oct Awake was positive and it was in some ways. But i have one problem with it..
I hate lumping pedeophilia in with Gays and transexualls.
Let me explain.. If you feel i am wrong tell me i can handle it.
To me being gay is not just a sex thing. A gay guy can fall in love, be warm with and close to another guy. They can show tenderness, understanding, compassion, be protective and have intense feelings much deeper than just sexual passion. How many of us say all we would love is a hug ?mmmmmm.
I know this will NEVER happen, not in all eternity, maybe i am even going over the limits saying this but... lets say that we were allowed to marry ..wouldn't a lot of us probably meet someone fall in love and marry?
The point i am making is that gay people can be full of love without harming another.
Now to me pedeophilia is about, a victim, abuse, they fool their subjects, they are calculating, Is that love???
The society's literature has pointed out that it is common for them to terrorise their victims by threatening to kill their parents or pets. Many take a long time to prepare and groom their victims. I dont see love in that do you?
Most worldly experts agree that this is a total unique type of leaning. Also one party is not consenting.
Ok it may be that the person was a victim of abuse themselves but it certainly does not stand that they will keep the vicoius circle turning. Some victims i know are fiercly protective of kids.
Don't get me wrong bros, i do know there is a difference between people who may have those feelings and do nothing about it. Jehovah can help them through and i wouldn't have a problem associating with a bro who said he had those feelings.. i certainly would do my best to support him to keep on the right road. Most of us gay bros would probably not turn our backs on anyone with a problem we've been there eh?
I hope you can understand what i mean by this, being gay or transexual is not on a par with being a pedeophile sorry i have a big prob accepting that and we know how most people feel about pedeophiles in the world.
If you think i need to change my view on this please let me know.
So lets keep loving and caring for each other bros, coz i tell you i can feel in my bones Armageddon's near.
love to you all
Scott
Thursday, October 2nd 2003 - 10:46:01 AM
Name: Kurt Comments: Wow! Thank you Phil, for updating this site in such a manner. I had to go to the bottome of the page to catch up.. hehehe
After reading all the comments, i have to agree.... please keep this site running. Weigh the pros & cons carefully, but whatever you do decide, I will support you. I have found many wonderful people thru this site & thru JWSupport, so sites like this do have merit.
I also enjoyed the Oct 8th article, but realized that it lumped too many "lifestyles" together and it didn't mention witnesses that have grown up in the Truth but still have these feeling manifest, even at early ages. (me it was about 9 or 10) Otherwise, the article was very good at pointing out that we have these feelings (more than occasional) and that if we fight them constantly, we are still acceptable to Jehovah as his adopted children. For this, I thank his Organization for the information. It has recently helped me get thru a tough time and brought some 'straight' friends closer. :-)
And yes, i could really use a hug right about now!
love, hugs, & snuggles to all!
Wednesday, October 1st 2003 - 07:09:58 PM
Name: bri Comments: Rob I read the Oct 8 Awake article a couple of times.
The first time I was a bit discouraged as it seems to be lacking in the general warmth and compassion that most articles comtain that the society provides. But after reading it again the logic and reasonning used are truly impeccable. It had more of an exhortation type genre to it. And we probably do need such, in the face of the bombardment of info that is ever increasing, saying that it is a completely natural and normal lifestyle. Here where I live, in certain regions gay marriage is now being legalized and the subject is constantly being brought up in the media, it is driving me crazy. Just shut up already.
In the meantime as a side note on the news they stated that syphilis has reached epidemic proportions in the gay community in Montreal.
As the article stated so simply. Jehovah gave us much freedom to do as we like but "When it comes to issues of sexuality, God gave specific guidelines." As painful as that may be to accept at times we all know this it is the best and only way. "Bah Humbug" (just joking)
I hope and pray that everyone is OK and enduring through this awful trial. Take care
Wednesday, October 1st 2003 - 06:42:54 PM
Name: bri Comments: I feel your pain Phil! I would find it quite difficult as well with the conflicting inner feelings that this may create for you at times. The reaction of your friend, seems a bit extreme, but I guess it`s his "right" and should be respected. While true that some may use this site with ulterier motives, for the most part many more have been saved from maybe following through on their weaknesses and doing things they may have later regretted, trough the encouragement recieved through this site. I feel that the pros do outweigh the cons by far. But there is the thorny issue of what the Jah`s organization has brought out.
All I can say is coming into contact with others through sites like this, it has truly lightened my load, to share this burden with others and to encourage one another. No it is not the ultimate solution, of course that is coming, but in waiting for it, it is a life saver or line to many of us and I would be pretty sad to see it go. That said I totally respect and appreciate the efforts you`ve made to help us all to date in keeping up the site.
Wednesday, October 1st 2003 - 08:37:28 AM
Name: Alex2 Comments: Thank you mates for your posts! They really encouraged me a whole lot! It feels so good to be part of a "team"! And we definitely are! "D", you are right, it is very unlikely to find someone in the congregation who is willing to offer an "unbiased ear". I think that someone can fully understand our issue only if they are living it in first person...
And Phil, as you were saying, it also depends on the country in which you are living. I live in an area of the world where there is still quite a lot of discrimination towards homosexuals, and that is reflected on the congregation as well... It was quite funny to hear a couple make harsh and not very friendly comments on gay people a couple of years ago... their son turned out to be gay!
So, yes, ignorance is what we really need to fight. The Awake article on "alternative lifestyles" was (I think) well balanced and objective. Maybe the best article ever published on the subject by the society.
For the first time I don't feel obliged to wonder whether I have been physically abused to justify my "confusion" about my sexual orientation. In many previous articles it seemed like that was one of the very few possible causes of homosexuality. And it really set me up! True, I have not had a very happy childhood, but I have never been violeted!
Anyway, thanks everybody for your support! Today I feel much better and I can smile again...
Phil, please do not say that "The future of this website is currently in doubt". We desperately need something like this! I have been posting for only a week, and I have already found a couple of good friends! The webmaster of this site will have to be selective and decide what people are not allowed to participate in the discussion. But please, let this site survive.
A big BIG hug to you all!
Alex(2)
Tuesday, September 30th 2003 - 04:44:04 PM
Name: D Comments: "...and I know that I would just need a big hug to feel better, but it seems like nobody is around right now..."
I totally feel the same way. What I wouldn't give for a hug. Well, not just a hug, but a hug from someone who understands. Somehow I seriously doubt I'd receive an unbiased ear if I came to anyone in my congregation with my problems, lol. But I know to chalk that up to common ignorance and general fear of things one isn't accustomed to, and NOT hate or ill will for me. And to be fair, my fear prevents me from doing so, so it partly lies on me as well, heh.
Good wishes to you in hopes that you feel better soon.
Tuesday, September 30th 2003 - 01:03:07 PM
Name: Phil Homepage URL: http://www.witnesses.plus.com Comments: Hi Rob,
Thank you for your postings to the guestbook.
I wonder if somehow you surfed straight to the guestbook, rather than the homepage of www.gaywitness.force9.co.uk
On the homepage of the website, the aim of the site (to help Witnesses who are coping with homosexual feelings) is clearly explained. Along with the rest, it says:
"Any who are seeking to hold to what Jehovah's Witnesses understand to be the Bible's standard of sexual morality are welcome to express their feelings here, and to seek, and provide, encouragement and support."
If a 'straight' Witness had something encouraging to say in the guestbook of the site, well I am sure they would be most welcome to say it. Submissions from non-witnesses would be considered on their merits. As to postings from disfellowshipped ones, well, that is perhaps a difficult area. Faithful Witnesses do not share spiritual fellowship with disfellowshipped ones, and disfellowshipped ones with a repentant heart understand this and do not try to circumvent what they understand to be God's arrangement.
In the circumstance that a patently genuine posting was sent by a disfellowshipped person, perhaps reporting that he or she was back at the meetings or something of that nature, then that posting too would be considered on its merits. It may be judged that simply allowing such a posting in the guestbook, without any discussion taking place with the individual, would not constitute spiritual fellowship. (On the other hand, letters from disfellowshipped ones do not appear in Awake! and I do bear that in mind).
On your question about the October 8th Awake!, you will see on the page of quotations from the literature: www.gaywitness.force9.co.uk/literature.html that a quotation from this has been incorporated (3rd quote down from top).
I am glad that you are pleased to have found the guestbook or website. Its future is currently in doubt. This is a tricky venture. Note that there is also www.geocities.com/jwsupport - the original and best!
Tuesday, September 30th 2003 - 10:45:30 AM
Name: Rob Comments: I just wondered if anyone has read the more recent article in the October 8th AWAKE? It was quite an article! Very enlightening. Well I don't know if these messages are being posted or not, but please feel free to respond. Thank You. agape.
Tuesday, September 30th 2003 - 10:36:25 AM
Name: Rob Comments: I happened to come across this site. Not sure how I did it but am happy I did! Could someone explain what this site is for. Is it for ANY individual? Gay or Straight? Reproved, disfellowshipped, active, inactive? If someone could please respond back to this I would appreciate it. Thank you! agape.
Tuesday, September 30th 2003 - 09:59:30 AM
Name: Phil Comments: Alex(2),
Sorry to hear you're feeling rotten today. I guess we can all identify with the feeling of having no-one to talk to about our inward upset, especially if we live in a country where these issues cannot readily be aired.
I was thinking how depression is more up-front and in the open these days, and if we suffered from it (which happily I don't) we could talk about it and get sympathy, and on a bad day, maybe phone someone or meet for coffee and get hugs, as it were. But with our problem, it's still not something that can be discussed in every culture and country, even in the Truth. So we might be having a bad day, yet have literally no-one we can communicate this to. I recall a day back in 1996 when something had happened that upset me very much in relation to our problem, and I remember going out in the magazine work with a brave face on, and thinking to myself that I could speak of this with no-one, yet I so much wanted to.
Well, things are happily a bit different for me now. But I am conscious that it is still very difficult for so many. Maybe that is where sites like this do have a place. It was a revelation to me to find jwsupport and to realise how many others there were, and perhaps this site still has work to do in that way for some. I genuinely don't know. I am conscious of the KM comments on brothers running websites on aspects of the Truth, and I do ponder the weight of my erstwhile friend's comments on those lines. Yet I reflect that he has been happy enough to enjoy the benefits of encouragement and contact thru jwsupport in the past, even if he now wishes to distance himself from these issues. Maybe others deserve that the facility should be there for them in the future.
I don't know. I am still pondering it all.
Meantime, Alex(2), please try and keep your spirits up, knowing that we understand, and feel for you, and are thinking of you.
Fond regards,
P.
Tuesday, September 30th 2003 - 09:03:52 AM
Name: Alex(2) Comments: No one is an island...
yes, if you are alone, you cannot go anywhere... I realise it especially when I feel lonely and abandoned (like today)... I'm getting no support from anyone, and the only person in the congregation who could understand what I am going through has just relocated 300 miles from where I live...
It is so difficult to stay pure when you are in this state of mind... the urge would be to go out there and pick up the first guy who is walking in the street. I know it wouldn't help me feel better, but still...
And it is crazy, because only two or three days ago I emailed a brother trying to encourage him... and here I am, finding myself one more time fighting against this feeling of helplessness.
And I know that I would just need a big hug to feel better, but it seems like nobody is around right now...
I'm sorry, I know that this message sounds really pathetic, but that's how I'm feeling today, and I know that someone on the other side of the screen may manage to understand me quite well...
Alex(2)
Tuesday, September 30th 2003 - 04:06:44 AM
Name: Phil Comments: Ooh, Rhett Butler,
Elizabethan quotations - great! "No man is an Island" - John Donne (Meditation 17). This has made me look it up and I'm pasting more of it below, for it makes a good point or two for us - 1)humans don't thrive in isolation, and 2) adversity can make us better, and better able to help others, if we let it.
"No man is an island, entire of itself; every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main. If a clod be washed away by the sea, Europe is the less, as well as if a promontory were, as well as if a manor of thy friend's or of thine own were. Any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind; and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee.......
No man hath affliction enough that is not matured and ripened by it, and made fit for God by that affliction. If a man carry treasure in bullion, or in a wedge of gold, and have none coined into current moneys, his treasure will not defray him as he travels. Tribulation is treasure in the nature of it, but it is not current money in the use of it, except we get nearer and nearer our home, heaven, by it. Another man may be sick too, and sick to death, and this affliction may lie in his bowels as gold in a mine and be of no use to him; but this bell that tells me of his affliction digs out and applies that gold to me, if by this consideration of another's dangers I take mine own into contemplation and so secure myself by making my recourse to my God, who is our only security. "
Good, eh?
Thank you for your comments folks, much appreciated, am still working out how I feel, after the attitude taken by my erstwhile friend.
Best wishes all,
P.
Monday, September 29th 2003 - 11:39:50 PM
Name: rhett butler Comments: hi,well i'm here in the south and i know they say no man is an island but i feel alone and adrift at sea. would anyone like to talk, email me i'm in need of friends who understand and i can listen if you need to talk, a voice is what i need . so call me and i can listen too ,because unlike the first Rhett Butler " i do give a d--n" ha ha .
Monday, September 29th 2003 - 11:23:00 AM
Name: Alex (1) Comments: Hi to all my known and unknown friends posting here. Thanks to Jas and Phil, this month has been very special to me and probably a step forward to a much less isolated kind of life. I don't see how this could have happened without a site such as this one. And now is the central question : Does Jehovah wants us to die alone and with no comfort from anybody ? I sincerely doubt it, and we must above all look for Jehovah's viewpoint. So let's pray him to let us understand if this thing is a good thing or not, and see what happens. But I do understand the difficult responsability taken by the owner, and I also accept to be taken as responsible as well if it was necessary.
Now I want to say a loud "thanks" to my 2 "Davids" friends for their help and support and also to Jas, (just in case you would be around here which rarely happens as it seems... let's see how much time it takes you to correct this !). You are my only 3 friends who know the "real me" and it took me 39 years to find you ! Thanks 'James' of jwsupport for that if you are still on air. We owe you all that, and it would be good to still have you with us somehow.
Take care all
Alex(1) for once I can be number 1 !!!
Sunday, September 28th 2003 - 08:24:57 PM
Name: Scott R. Comments: Phil,
I have grappled with the same question before, whether these sites are actually beneficial or just disasters waiting to happen. But it's always been right after a bad experience that I've had to ask myself that question. Looking at it rationally, I can answer that yes, these sites are beneficial and can say even that their existence is crucial to many gay witnesses' survival. So many I have spoken to, and myself as well, found support via Internet just as we were hitting rockbottom and losing the last little grip we had on the ledge of life.
Although I have no data, my feeling is that most who grow up gay and in the truth leave the organization. Part of this is inevitable, but at least some of it has to be blamed on the way the issue is treated among the rank and file of the organization. Instead of getting the extra support that our fight requires, GLBT JW youth have to go it alone so to speak. We have to come to terms with these huge issues, in solitude, while other teenagers are grappling with such issues as to whether to buy Cristina Aguilera's new album or Brittany Spears's. These sites fill a gap that the society doesn't fill. In the interim while the society slowly shifts its position to where it should be, acknowledging the reality and extent of the issue, people who turn to the Internet should be able to find support and recognition and validation. I do believe that the society will come around eventually, but its change will be slow. We've come from the 1970's Youth book where homosexuality is blamed on frequent masturbation (actual quote: "you'd be surprised at how often it happens!") to today where the society isn't quite sure what to say about it (do we ignore it for several years (late 90's), do we deny emphatically that homosexuality could have any genetic link whatsoever (last summer), or do we give a throwaway mention to genetics while surrounding that possibility with pedophiles and pornography and abuse (this summer)? My hope is that next summer we'll have an article that paints a more accurate picture about homosexuality is it's lived by everyday people. AN INTERVIEW OR TWO WOULD BE GREAT, IF ANYONE FROM BETHEL IS READING THIS.
I have met about six brothers in real life that I've met on JW Support (although one I did technically know before), and I've corresponded with at least 40 at one point or another. I've had bad experiences in the short term and good experiences in the long run and vice-versa and every combination thereof, but either way I can't imagine not having had these experiences. I know some have done it, but if I hadn't found JW Support at 19, I honestly am not sure how I would have gotten by. Today, I still struggle with despair and doubts, but at least so far I'm able to stick with the truth, largely due to what I've gotten from communicating with others like me. It is a fact that the society does discourage personal sites like this one, but I think like I said earlier that the good it does justifies its existence.
Sunday, September 28th 2003 - 05:31:00 PM
Name: D Comments: I'm very thankful sites like this are in existence. I am a young man in my early 20s who suffers from these feelings. It is absolutely agonizing at times. Satan is a desprate, cunning trickster, and at times I find myself rationalizing "well, maybe I can just *try* it". The recent Awake article touched upon this, and reinforced the fact that it is possible to remain in good standing w/ our loving Jehovah. It centers around our faith, helping us to combat these feelings from turning into actions.
Those other ex-jw/gay jw sites are an absolute joke. Their desprate attempts to find loopholes in something Jehovah has made crystal clear astounds me(in most of their experiences they don't even use God's name.) May Jehovah bless you all in your struggle, and bless us in our service to him.
Sunday, September 28th 2003 - 01:11:06 PM
Name: Scott Comments: Hey Phil,
See the guy who upset you well he really doesnt deserve your friendship. And please dont scrub that comment out. Let me tell you something very serious, if i had not discovered your site i dont think i would be here now. It was crunch time for me. I honestly think Jehovah directed me here.
Today i actually felt happy for the first time in many many years! I did not like it coz it was strange and unnatural to me, i hope it lasts and i better get used to it! The brothers i have met here have been amongst the most genuine, honest and amazing bros i have ever met and i tell you i've been around a bit. Ok there are a couple of winder uppers. But for exampleI've met a bro through this site who has been through a very hard time in his life and i tell you he is more of a man that most of the "straight" bros i know. If this site helps brothers like him and me to keep going then it's got to be worth it. If we all show a bit of love for each other and watch out for each other we will get there.
So please dont kill this coz if you do i will set up another site and call it the same thing he he and i really dont have the time to do that.
Sunday, September 28th 2003 - 10:09:00 AM
Name: oliver Comments: hi phil,
even though i'm not one of 100%-supporters of this site, please let us know "why". the most contributes are supportive, only a few are "dubious" and apparently of xjw. we knew this all the time.
oliver
Sunday, September 28th 2003 - 09:32:51 AM
Name: Alex2 Comments: Phil, I think that sites like this one are a good tool for us to get in contact with brothers and sisters who are going through the same struggle we are experiencing. I wish I could have something like that some years ago...
As far as I know this is among the very few websites for current JWs who are dealing with our problem... the others are mainly rubbish from apostates.
A big HI! to everybody!
Alex(2)
Sunday, September 28th 2003 - 07:07:52 AM
Name: Phil Comments: Gloom.
Hello all,
I do not know whether it is wise to continue this site. I am in a state of profound gloom this afternoon.
Friday, September 26th 2003 - 03:41:19 PM
Name: Scott Comments: Hi Everyone,
I posted on this site a few weeks ago, i was about to throw in the towel when i got messages from you. Hey you have transformed my life i want to say thanks! I love you all. I especially want to say a big thanks to my close friends on here you know who you are he he. I can't believe i am making close friends for the first time in my life.
Bye all you bros and sis keep in touch.
Wednesday, September 24th 2003 - 08:00:49 AM
Name: David Comments: Hi everyone,
Regarding the latest article on our struggle I agree with Greyson, I also think it is a step forward. And steps even if they are small are always important. I especially enjoyed the last two paragraphs where it is acknowledged that for some (we know it´s ALL or MOST of us but they have to be balanced)is a day-to-day struggle and that God views us as faithful servants and clean in his eyes as long as we do not act on our feelings. It will be useful for those who rule out the possibility of the existence of brothers and sisters with homosexual feelings within the congregations. It was funny this summer when one of my friends wondered why I am not dating a girl and why I never show any interest in marriage. She said: "well, but you cannot be gay cause' you wouldn´t be a Jehovah´s Witness". If she has read the article she may have changed her point of view.
I especially encourage you all to read the two study articles on the October 15 Watchtower about self-control. I have found them very encouraging, as the best ones in the last few years. I guess that it is one of the main things in which we all have to work on and as I always say this is not a fight against what we cannot change but a fight against giving in and acting on our feelings which requires much self-control. The articles are presented in a very understanding and caring way. It's clear that the members of the Governing Body are very aware of what is going on and feel for us. I could see that this summer first-hand at the International Convention I attended here in Spain. The member of the Governing Body who was assigned to my city said the final prayer. It was the most moving prayer I have ever heard. He devoted most of it to young people and how difficult it is for us to serve Jehovah in this world due to various and different problems and circunstances. And something that called everyone's attention was when he said "We ask you Jehovah for those who have to remain single. We know how hard it is to feel ALONE." And begged Jehovah to help us remain faithful in spite of being in such a situation.
I wanna take advantage of this post to say that I am really grateful for the hospitality, company and friendship of the two of you I met this summer at the UK and of the "American man" with whom I spent many days here in my country in July and August. And Alex, I know you are doing good this week but it is really painful seeing you so bad at times. You mentioned you got oxygen from those days in Barcelona, so breathe Alex, please breathe. Take advantage of the special days ahead. Too many emotions, huh? I can tell these special days will linger in your mind for the rest of your life and will do you much good. You are in good company this week. And remember: "¿Próxima estación?...Esperanza (next station?...Hope). And "I believe in what I cannot see".
A huge hugh to ALL my buddies. I do not mention you not to forget anyone. And to three of you, just see ya in a little bit more than one week!! Thanks so much for all the arrangements done. Can´t wait!!
Keep you all in my prayers both those I know and those I do not. Hang in there.
Your brother,
David (Spain)
Tuesday, September 23rd 2003 - 05:04:30 PM
Name: Seth Comments: I just read the article on transexuality. I am a boy but ever since I can remember I have always felt like a girl. All my friends were and still are girls, I always played with Barbie Dolls I never did anything with boys. I used to dress up in Mums cloths and makeup, then get a big spanking from Dad. I remember once when I was five I sat on the BBQ table outside and prayed to Jehovah to change me into a girl when I woke up in the morning.
Now I still act like a girl but I have gotten used to my body. I had no choice but to except myself didn't I. Here is my problem. What is going to happen to me what the new system comes. I don't want to be changed into a straight boy, because I would be a completly differnt person. The way I act would be completly different, I wouldn't be the Seth that everybody knows. Although Jehovah says everybody would be happy, I can't help but feel I would be brain washed. What if I was to become girl, that wouldn't be good either. I just want to be me.
Sunday, September 21st 2003 - 04:03:54 PM
Name: Phil Homepage URL: http://www.witnesses.plus.com Comments: John,
Thank you for signing the guestbook, taking the time to make that honest and moving expression.
I am sure that we all understand what you mean by feeling for others of the same sex emotionally as well as sexually.
Some of the expressions from the society's literature, summarised on a page of this site, are helpful and encouraging. Look, for example, at the story of the man in London, in the 1980 Awake. The article refers to the intense deep and loving companionship between him and his partner. The Watchtower society does acknowledge the reality of such feelings - the tender and loving as well as the purely sexual. The most recent Awake article is good too.
Please do not blame yourself for having the feelings that you have, John. It is NOT something you've done or are doing, that causes you to have a same-sex orientation. It isn't your fault. You cannot change your orientation, you just have to cope with it - and it can be done.
I sincerely hope that some others from here and from jwsupport may take time to write in response to John's comments, and other recent signings, and offer some encouragement.
Phil.
Sunday, September 21st 2003 - 02:08:46 PM
Name: a gay witness Comments: testing testing ... Is this thing on?
Saturday, September 20th 2003 - 10:40:22 PM
Name: John Villalva Comments: Im very thankful i found this page. I dont know where to start. I know the truth(on a long vacation to mexico at an aunts house who is a witness) since i was 8 years old and also known then that i was different. Whenever i went to the kingdom hall and the topic of "homosexuality" came up i got chills on my spine and felt like someone was piercing me in the heart. I was very zealous that i didnt care to live like that. Its amazing that i knew at a very young age who and what was going on inside me. i prayed to Jehovah every night and cried about it and hoped to get runover by a truck or just not ever wake up from my sleep. But it was all Useless i was battling a very strong feeling. I tried dating girls when i was toung and even had sex with them. But i still felt the same. when i was 15 i was sent to mexico for misbehaving. When there I felt whole again because i was going to the meetings and felt that my spriritual hunger was being satisfied. I stil had the same feelings but i was trying to fight even more, I wanted to go around the world and spread the good news of gods kingdom here on earh as a way of getting out of my feelings. When i came back to los angeles i looked up kingdom halls and my mother said that if i ever contacted another withness she would disown me because of the horrible experiences i have livd in my aunts house and the way they talked and what they did when not infront of other witnesses. My mother thought that the organization was full of hipocrates. one day when i couldnt live with this feeling i decided to just come out i was tuired of having suicidal thoughts and tired of feeling like a criminal and like an abomination to mankind at the age of 16, after watching a tv show on men who married women and lived double lives. i didnt want that for me. i didnt want to live a lie. I know the truth in my heart and nothing will make me change my mind. i wish someone could help me understand how bad is it to have feelings for another man not just sexually but emotionally. How can i choose what is right. please i know there is some one out there i want to be happy again. I want to be in that new kingdom, i dont want all my pain to go to waste how can i get back to being in the right path before its too late??
Saturday, September 13th 2003 - 02:55:57 AM
Name: alex Comments: From Alex, barcelona 3pm
I feel so sad now that you are gone ! I keep my tears from falling only becausse no one can get any benefit from them, not even myself. We had such a special spiritual and relieving break together here, so far from our respective unsatisfying lives, so hidden underground, unknown to the rest of the well thinking world, that it is hard to move back up to the other side of life. Having to live one challenging life is not enough now, I must also carry another secret underground living, which adds pain while pretending releasing the former ones... As we say in my country, a train hides a second trains, just as a pain prevails over another pain. But now both make me suffer. I wish even more than before that I wasn't born, ever, and even knowing you, although it brings some much required oxygen, is not enough to make this unthinkable situation bearable. I'm drowning another time, drinking the salty and disgusting water of imperfect life, and I wonder if there is any sense to it. You reminded me that life is worth living, and I keep thinking that this life is just worth suffering, and only because of much higher issues which, as important as they are, will not feed our desperate needs for love and understanding at the present time. Fortunately time and not static and will sure bring some compulsory changes. But when ? And will I still be here to live them ? And will I still have some soul left in me to benefit from them, or will I be completely emptied from any remaining will or senses ? I'm on the way. Proxima estacion ?
Thursday, September 11th 2003 - 02:25:35 PM
Name: Jc Comments: Im looking forward to the international convention coming up in Hawaii. Anyone going? I've never been to one so im so excited to see all the different brothers and sisters!! I also heard of the new publications that will be released but I refuse to know the details. I cant wait!!
Thursday, September 11th 2003 - 10:59:41 AM
Name: Kurt Comments: Oliver,
I'm saddened that you would think of me, or anyone else on this site, as fake! :-( We are all real people, some using real names and others using pseudnyms (sp). A small, yet irritating, fact to me is that you do not provide an email address. This leads me to believe that you don't trust us. That's okay! Just don't dislike us for using fake names and we won't dislike, or dis-trust, you for not providing an email address. If you want to inquire more about each of us, don't be afraid to email us personally and we, i'm sure, would all be glad to discuss things with you.
Philia,
Kurt
Thursday, September 11th 2003 - 04:08:19 AM
Name: David Comments: Hi all,
Oliver, I'm not a fake!
People from this site have met me in person, and can verify that I'm real. I have also spoken to several by phone.
I've never met "Kurt", or spoken to him by phone, but I have spoken by phone with another from this site who lives near him and visits him. So, "Kurt" is real too!
Actually, if you look at the timings, which your question prompted me to do, there are just over four hours between Kurt's posting and mine.
Does anyone know what's happening with jwsupport? It is such a shame to see it apparently abandoned.
Best,
David.
Thursday, September 11th 2003 - 01:27:42 AM
Name: JC Comments: Hello
Im glad i stumbled accross this site. Its been very encouraging to know that im not the only one with the challege. I need support and advice from you older and/or more experienced ones in the congregation. Again, its strngthening to know im not the only "challenged jw." I was raised in the truth as with many of you and ive experienced jehovah's blessings for the 21 years of my life but felt extremely lonely emotionalwise in my congregation until i found this site which broadens to the entire association--that knows of this site anyway. Thanks for the encouragement and insight y'all. Id appreciate anyone's contact.
Bro J
Thursday, September 11th 2003 - 12:43:33 AM
Name: Mat Comments: The Theocratic School and Service Meeting for this week was very powerful for me! It was one of those meetings where you think they are talking directly to you. I was particularly comforted by the Bible reading and 1 Cor. 10:13: "No temptation has taken you except what is common to men. But God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear, but along with the temptation he will also make the way out in order for you to be able to endure it." David quoted that scripture to me on another occasion, but I didn't appreciate what was meant by the phrase "what is common to men". I said to him that "this problem is not common, it's relatively rare;it can't be about homosexuality", but failed to realize that it encompassed ALL temptations to wrongdoing, whether they involved the opposite or same sex, or other forms of misconduct. I also was reminded of the EXTREME danger of loose conduct and dwelling on what is not clean by a brother quoting James 1:14, 15: "...each one is tried by being drawn out and enticed by his own desire. Then the desire, when it has become fertile, gives birth to sin; in turn, sin, when it has been accomplished, brings forth death." When we try to get around the rules (against blatant fornication) and dwell on immoral fantasies and view questionable media, we are just fooling ourselves; it will eventually cause us to act upon those feelings and lead to sin and death. I have been slack in meeting attendance lately (among other things) and this served as a reminder to me why we all need the meetings and the encouragement of our brothers and sisters. EVERYONE, be they married or single, old or young, of whatever sexual orientation, is a "member of the body" and is loved and appreciated by Jehovah!
I would like to thank all those who have taken the time to listen on IM and have offered their friendship, particularly to Kurt, Judah and David. I pray that I have not served as a discouragement to them (though I realize that I have at times) and hope for their continued support!
Hang in there, brothers and sisters, you are not alone. There is always someone there to listen and help, most of all Jehovah God!
Always,
Mat
Wednesday, September 10th 2003 - 02:32:06 PM
Name: oliver Comments: hi,
this guestbook seems to me to be a fake, half an hour ago i looked through it, now there is new: kurt's posting, and in the same time david' comment on it. is david one of this everytime-just-in-time-on-the-right-place-people?? who is faking here??
Wednesday, September 10th 2003 - 01:51:27 PM
Name: David Comments: Hi again folks,
Kurt, that's really nice, that you got some encouragement recently from your elders.
My own body of elders are encoraging to me, because they never give the slightest suggestion that my difficulty of orientation is something that makes me less worthy. I know that on the contrary, they are keen to use me. With some elders in the past in my congregation, is was different, but they are not elders now.
The "Latter-day Jonadabs" article on this site makes a good point on this matter, nicely illustrated.
David.
Wednesday, September 10th 2003 - 09:37:14 AM
Name: Kurt Comments: Greyson,
Thank you so much for the encouragement. It's information like this that really helps us to keep going, despite our "falls" & "limpings". I'm sure I speak for all the brothers & sisters on this list and out there, (or maybe it's just my feeling) that it's instances like this that help us to realize that we are not as unworthy as we make ourselves feel. I struggle with feelings of unworth to the point where i'm not sure if Jehovah will even listen to me. Recently, my elders have helped me to see that I am not unworthy, that i'm a fellow brother in the Truth, and, that even though I have a "thorn in my flesh", Jehovah still looks down upon me as an acceptable person.
May we all continue this struggle with the help of Jehovah, his son Jesus, & the Spirit appointed Organization of fellow believers. I'm so happy to have brothers & sisters like all of you!
Wednesday, September 10th 2003 - 07:40:20 AM
Name: Seb Comments: Is it just me or was the comparison with paedophiles depressing. The article would have been just as valid and principled without it.
Wednesday, September 10th 2003 - 04:06:34 AM
Name: David Comments: Greyson, really enjoyed your posting. You'll note that extracts from the recent magazine articles have been added to the page on this site.
Personally, I think I would like to see a much fuller acknowledgement in a future article that so many of "us" were RAISED IN THE TRUTH. There seems to be so much emphasis on ones COMING INTO the Truth from a former worldy lifestyle, and making lifestyle changes. But, as we know from these sites, the reality for so many of the brothers and sisters with a homosexual orientation, was not a former wordly lifestyle, but an unbriging in the Truth, and no worldy lifestyle at all. Yet the feelings are there.
The recent Awake! article speaks about confused feelings. Oh, mine have never been in the slightest confused! I have always known 100 percent with crystal clarity what my feelngs were. I don't know WHY they are, but I do know without any ambiguity or confusion whatever, WHAT they are!
Best,
David
Wednesday, September 10th 2003 - 12:20:36 AM
Name: greyson Comments: I suppose most have seen the new article in the oct. 8th Awake on "alternative lifestyles"... it's a good balanced viewpoint straight from the scriptures... I'd be lying if I said I wasn't entirely disappointed... but at least it's a step forward, I guess the brothers can only say so much, have to remain nuetral, which makes sense... after all what do "we" expect really? them to say it's ok?
I did appreciate them understanding that some of us still have that "day-to-day struggle against wrong desires"... so no really "new" information, just that we all have to keeping fighting, just like the "straight" single people, granted they can marry, but it's more fun being single anyway right? ;)
We had a great talk tonight by the district overseer, he used that illustration we all know well about "running the race" but he used it in such detail, breaking it all down to what that really means for all of us as Christians... that even jogging, walking, and even limping and crawling in the race is still at least moving forward.
He used an example of a Olympic runner from 1992 that right after the race had begun, pulled a muscle and fell to the ground, but determined to finish, got up and began limping to the finish line, then his father jumped from the stands and helped him limp to the finish line which took 5 minutes in the otherwise 45 second race. Everyone in the crowds cheered the entire time. Obviously you can see the parallels... we're all limping to that finish, and Jehovah is there holding us all the way, and cheering us on is the thousands of examples we have in the Bible who've already run the race and finished faithfully, showing us it can be done. At first we may think we're only "45 secs" away from the end, but then we get hit and thrown to the ground in excruciating pain and it takes a little longer than we thought but with Jehovah's help we can cross that line.
It was a great encouragement to me and I hope it is to you too, just thought I would share that. Keep it up guys (and girls) We fall down everyday but we get up and keep going even limping or crawling sometimes, but I know we'll all look back and say it was worth it all the way ;)
ciao
greyson
Monday, September 8th 2003 - 03:29:17 PM
Name: kurt Comments: Hey, thanks for the update on the site. Also for the seperation of the literature quotes. It will be nice to print these out for use. It's great to see so many posting on this site. new people, new faces, new opinions, new experiences. I find it very upbuilding.
thanks all! love to all!
Sunday, September 7th 2003 - 10:31:12 AM
Name: Phil Homepage URL: http://www.witnesses.plus.com Comments: Hello folks,
Just to let you know that the page of quotations from the lieterature has been revised to include extracts from recent articles, and the material arranged into two categories: References specific to homosexuality, and References to continuing struggles.
It struck me that the section of references specific to homsexuality could handily be printed out for easy reference, in case, as seems to have sometimes happened, individuals who approach elders find that some elders say things that are different from what's in the literature.
Thanks,
Phil.
Saturday, September 6th 2003 - 02:56:53 PM
Name: jc Comments: Hey everyone!
I'm "jc", I'm from Mexico, sorry I don't know English very well, I have gay feelings 2, now I'm publisher not baptized, but I hope to get baptized on October -2003-, I wanna have friends with the same feelings around the world, I feel alone alot of times so I wanna have real friends, im 15 years old if someone wanna talk with me just add me to u'r lists or send me a e-mail etc.
bye everyone, take care
hola a todos si hay alguien que hable español.
Saturday, September 6th 2003 - 10:47:01 AM
Name: Phil Homepage URL: http://www.witnesses.plus.com Comments: Dear all,
Dreambook guestbooks only have a capacity of 150 signings per book, so I have had to start a second book.
You can still view the 150 entries in the old book. Just click on the link on the Homepage.
I have looked at other guestbooks, but decided to stick with Dreambook meantime, as in other respects it seems to offer the best features. I like the Guestbook.de one that James uses for jwsupport, especially as it numbers each entry, but i am keen to avoid random banner ads.
Keep posting folks! Many thanks.
Phil.
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